Skyrim "doormounting" Rules question

2011-12-11 03:28:12 pm

Not a Zelda 2 refrence

So there is a glitch that drastically increases your speed but it's ambiguous how you can use it under the rules.

the way you activate it is by opening a door and mounting a horse at the same time. Then saving after the door translation.
Once you do that the next save you load, your character will have super speed.
So obliviously loading Skyrim saves don't reset everything back to the way you saved them.
Can you use this glitch in the game from the very start? By having a gliched save from another game you could reload it before you load each section of the run, and run super quick without ever having to get on a horse.
Can you get a horse and activate the glitch and then use that save for the rest of the run?
Is this glitch not useable at all?

Thread title:

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2011-12-11 03:49:38 pm

2011-12-11 03:47:04 pm

welcome to the machine

I don't think we've ever had a segmented run where loading the same save repeatedly was kept in the run, but no reason why not. This would also fit under the single-segment with resets category, if we end up having one for skyrim. See here: http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted.html

You would, however, have to create the glitch-setup-savefile in the course of the run. You wouldn't be able to start a new game and then load a savefile created beforehand.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-12-11 03:51:16 pm

2011-12-11 03:48:32 pm

Claimh Happy

Yeah. It sounds like this would have to be for either SS with resets or Segmented, but as long as you DO NOT USE A SEPARATE FILE TO PERFORM THE GLITCH, it should be perfectly legal.

Edit: As an example, Twilight Princess has the Back-in-Time glitch. While you can use other save files to drastically change the effects the glitch will have, those uses are not allowed. You can only use the glitch, and all glitches based on it, with the file you are actually using for the run.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-12-11 04:21:55 pm

InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-12-11 04:20:34 pm

2011-12-11 04:19:32 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Separate category, I'm assuming?

Also, would the runner have to show the glitched file being used as part of each segment? That is, would he or she have to record his or her act of accessing the glitched file and then reloading into another save file?

mapler: I don't understand that stipulation. Can you explain with an example? For instance, would it be okay to make a run with, say, 10 segments. You perform the glitch in the first segment, ending when you make Save File 1 which allows you to use the glitch in Save File 2. This superspeed lasts in Save File 2 until the second segment ends at Save File 3. Then, because you want to have superspeed in segment 3, you record all of the following: the load of Save File 2, and then the quit-n-load of Save File 3, activating the superspeed for the rest of the third segment which ends at the creation of Save File 4. (Btw, if the answer to my other question is that you do not have to show the glitch activation as part of the segment, then ignore those parts of my example) If the runner is NOT allowed to do this, how would they be able to use the glitch at all? Would they have to perform it at the end of every segment so they could use the speed again in the next segment?

Separate category, I'm assuming?

Also, would the runner have to show the glitched file being used as part of each segment?  That is, would he or she have to record his or her act of accessing the glitched file and then reloading into another save file?

mapler:  I don't understand that stipulation.  Can you explain with an example?  For instance, would it be okay to make a run with, say, 10 segments.  You perform the glitch in the first segment, ending when you make Save File 1 which allows you to use the glitch in Save File 2.  This superspeed lasts in Save File 2 until the second segment ends at Save File 3.  Then, because you want to have superspeed in segment 3, you record all of the following: the load of Save File 2, and then the quit-n-load of Save File 3, activating the superspeed for the rest of the third segment which ends at the creation of Save File 4.  (Btw, if the answer to my other question is that you do not have to show the glitch activation as part of the segment, then ignore those parts of my example)  If the runner is NOT allowed to do this, how would they be able to use the glitch at all?  Would they have to perform it at the end of every segment so they could use the speed again in the next segment?

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-12-11 06:04:02 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-12-11 06:02:17 pm

2011-12-11 05:52:03 pm

Claimh Happy

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

Would they have to perform it at the end of every segment so they could use the speed again in the next segment?

Yes. Perhaps a separate category could be made for runs which use multiple files as long as every action in every file is counted towards the run, and every file involved in the run is created during the run.

Again, watch Paraxade's Twilight Princess segmented run for an example of BiT, a glitch activated through a soft reset.

Edit: Actually, I don't think it would need another category, but the set up time for the other file and for every time you set up the glitch would obviously count towards the run time. I feel like the discussion I was thinking of was one from before SDA allowed SS with resets, which may be why it wasn't allowed at the time.

Poxnor

2011-12-11 09:18:54 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from VorpalEdge:

You would, however, have to create the glitch-setup-savefile in the course of the run. You wouldn't be able to start a new game and then load a savefile created beforehand.

I'm curious why. If the glitched file were created in advance, then used during the actual run, could that not be considered a New Game+ run? (I'm thinking that would be sort of, but not exactly, analogous to the Chrono Trigger NG+ run -- it uses a save file created beforehand.)

Blazier

2011-12-12 02:45:49 am

This wont need a separate category. Just include in the recording all of the setting up and performing of it.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-12-12 04:40:49 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-12-12 04:38:47 am

2011-12-12 04:35:57 am

My only real concern about something like this is that it introduces a large number of irritating questions about timing. Basically, if we were going to allow this Flip or some other admin would need to definitively answer all the following questions:

1) What counts as one segment?*
2) In manually timed games, are saving screens included in timing when not at segment ends, a) on PC and b) on console?**
3) In manually timed games, are loading screens included in timing when not at segment starts, a) on PC and b) on console?**
4) In manually timed games, is time spent in the save menu, when not at a segment end, counted in timing a) on PC and b) on console?**
5) In manually timed games, is time spent in the load menu, when not at a segment start, counted in timing a) on PC and b) on console?**

* Note that the answer to #1 implicitly answers the question of whether you're allowed to record yourself once activating a load glitch, then, while it remains active, reattempt the following section over and over without recording yourself activating the glitch again every time.
** As well as splitting these four questions into eight by distinguishing between PC and console runs, it may be necessary to further split them into sixteen by distinguishing between segmented runs and 'single segment with resets' runs. I don't know enough about the SS w/ resets category to know whether any timing stuff is handled differently for it. Anyway, somebody can have fun filling in their 4x4 table of yeses and noes.

Given the general annoyingness of ruling on something like this, I'd be inclined to not bother until somebody seriously wants to make a run using these kind of glitches.

Quote from Poxnor:

Quote from VorpalEdge:

You would, however, have to create the glitch-setup-savefile in the course of the run. You wouldn't be able to start a new game and then load a savefile created beforehand.

I'm curious why.

Your NG+ suggestion isn't totally unreasonable, so I'll respond to this. There are several things I think would be bad about allowing premade saves.

Firstly, I think it'd be pretty bewildering for the viewer if pre-made savefiles were used.

Secondly: if we allow them then we still need to have some rule restricting what you're allowed to do when loading from premade saves and have a requirement that there's a 'continuous' playthrough from beginning to end with only newly made saves along the way. (i.e. you can't just start the game, load a save in front of the final boss, kill the final boss, win the game, and say 'yay I got a 5 second NG+ run). Allowing pre-made saves to be used but only in particular ways feels much more arbitrary to me than just not allowing them at all.

Thirdly: I accept that the above point may seem like a silly and contrived objection in the context of the game being discussed in this thread. However, a similar case that I've come across in some games that I run is a situation where if you press certain switches and immediately load the game, the switch stays pressed after loading. In fact, in the game I'm thinking of, this even works for level end triggers; trigger a level end, then in the split-second before it completes and loads the next level, load a save on the same level, and after the save loads you'll win the level and go to the next level. Allowing this kind of thing without pre-made saves adds some interesting new possibilities; you can avoid backtracking after pressing switches by load-warping to a location you saved at earlier, or you can hit a level end trigger and then load a save to restore your health and ammo to an earlier and better state before the next level loads - although these new possibilities would be so powerful that they would definitely need a new category to compete fairly with existing runs. Allowing this stuff with premade saves, on the other hand, would be obviously stupid since it would amount to letting you skip the entire game.

Basically, forbidding the use of saves made in advance would make the rules on this simpler and avoid any need for games where load-glitches affect stuff like movement mechanics to be handled differently from games where load-glitches affect stuff like objectives being completed or doors being open. In the absence of any significant arguments for the other side that I can think of, I think that simpler is better.

My only real concern about something like this is that it introduces a [i]large[/i] number of irritating questions about timing. Basically, if we were going to allow this Flip or some other admin would need to definitively answer all the following questions:

1) What counts as one segment?*
2) In manually timed games, are saving screens included in timing when not at segment ends, a) on PC and b) on console?**
3) In manually timed games, are loading screens included in timing when not at segment starts, a) on PC and b) on console?**
4) In manually timed games, is time spent in the save menu, when not at a segment end, counted in timing a) on PC and b) on console?**
5) In manually timed games, is time spent in the load menu, when not at a segment start, counted in timing a) on PC and b) on console?**

* Note that the answer to #1 implicitly answers the question of whether you're allowed to record yourself once activating a load glitch, then, while it remains active, reattempt the following section over and over without recording yourself activating the glitch again every time.
** As well as splitting these four questions into eight by distinguishing between PC and console runs, it may be necessary to further split them into sixteen by distinguishing between segmented runs and 'single segment with resets' runs. I don't know enough about the SS w/ resets category to know whether any timing stuff is handled differently for it. Anyway, somebody can have fun filling in their 4x4 table of yeses and noes.

Given the general annoyingness of ruling on something like this, I'd be inclined to not bother until somebody [i]seriously[/i] wants to make a run using these kind of glitches.

[quote="Poxnor"][quote="VorpalEdge"]You would, however, have to create the glitch-setup-savefile in the course of the run.  You wouldn't be able to start a new game and then load a savefile created beforehand.[/quote]
I'm curious why.[/quote]

Your NG+ suggestion isn't totally unreasonable, so I'll respond to this. There are several things I think would be bad about allowing premade saves.

Firstly, I think it'd be pretty bewildering for the viewer if pre-made savefiles were used.

Secondly: if we allow them then we still need to have some rule restricting what you're allowed to do when loading from premade saves and have a requirement that there's a 'continuous' playthrough from beginning to end with only newly made saves along the way. (i.e. you can't just start the game, load a save in front of the final boss, kill the final boss, win the game, and say 'yay I got a 5 second NG+ run). Allowing pre-made saves to be used but only in particular ways feels much more arbitrary to me than just not allowing them at all.

Thirdly: I accept that the above point may seem like a silly and contrived objection in the context of the game being discussed in this thread. However, a similar case that I've come across in some games that I run is a situation where if you press certain switches and immediately load the game, the switch stays pressed after loading. In fact, in the game I'm thinking of, this even works for level end triggers; trigger a level end, then in the split-second before it completes and loads the next level, load a save on the same level, and after the save loads you'll win the level and go to the next level. Allowing this kind of thing without pre-made saves adds some interesting new possibilities; you can avoid backtracking after pressing switches by load-warping to a location you saved at earlier, or you can hit a level end trigger and then load a save to restore your health and ammo to an earlier and better state before the next level loads - although these new possibilities would be so powerful that they would definitely need a new category to compete fairly with existing runs. Allowing this stuff with premade saves, on the other hand, would be obviously stupid since it would amount to letting you skip the entire game.

Basically, forbidding the use of saves made in advance would make the rules on this simpler and avoid any need for games where load-glitches affect stuff like movement mechanics to be handled differently from games where load-glitches affect stuff like objectives being completed or doors being open. In the absence of any significant arguments for the other side that I can think of, I think that simpler is better.

Kotti

Edit history:

Kotti: 2011-12-12 07:57:24 am

2011-12-12 07:51:51 am

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

* Note that the answer to #1 implicitly answers the question of whether you're allowed to record yourself once activating a load glitch, then, while it remains active, reattempt the following section over and over without recording yourself activating the glitch again every time.

A lot of the time the reason to restarting a segment is the game crashing because of the glitch, so the glitch has to be activated again anyway.

As far as timing goes, I think it's fairly simple. Loading screens are not included as they're dependant on the hardware, saving and menus are. You could argue that saving shouldn't be timed either but saving takes so little time and hardly stands out from normal gameplay that I don't think it's worth it.

Quote:

Secondly: if we allow them then we still need to have some rule restricting what you're allowed to do when loading from premade saves and have a requirement that there's a 'continuous' playthrough from beginning to end with only newly made saves along the way. (i.e. you can't just start the game, load a save in front of the final boss, kill the final boss, win the game, and say 'yay I got a 5 second NG+ run). Allowing pre-made saves to be used but only in particular ways feels much more arbitrary to me than just not allowing them at all.

That is not the case at all. In NG+ you would still beat the whole game, but use a pre-made save to activate the glitch* before you normally could. The only differences to a normal run are that you can use the glitch from the very beginning and that you can skip buying a horse and setting up a glitch file with it.

*A save with you standing next to a horse and a door, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter what kind of character. You enter the door and mount the horse and then load the real save.

EDIT:
Actually, it might not be as simple as I said in the last bit. The horse used to activate the glitch probably does matter and I don't think it's been checked if the character used matters (amount of stamina?). Anyway, that's not as related to this thread as it is to the planning thread.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]* Note that the answer to #1 implicitly answers the question of whether you're allowed to record yourself once activating a load glitch, then, while it remains active, reattempt the following section over and over without recording yourself activating the glitch again every time.[/quote]A lot of the time the reason to restarting a segment is the game crashing because of the glitch, so the glitch has to be activated again anyway.

As far as timing goes, I think it's fairly simple. Loading screens are not included as they're dependant on the hardware, saving and menus are. You could argue that saving shouldn't be timed either but saving takes so little time and hardly stands out from normal gameplay that I don't think it's worth it.[quote]
Secondly: if we allow them then we still need to have some rule restricting what you're allowed to do when loading from premade saves and have a requirement that there's a 'continuous' playthrough from beginning to end with only newly made saves along the way. (i.e. you can't just start the game, load a save in front of the final boss, kill the final boss, win the game, and say 'yay I got a 5 second NG+ run). Allowing pre-made saves to be used but only in particular ways feels much more arbitrary to me than just not allowing them at all.
[/quote]That is not the case at all. In NG+ you would still beat the whole game, but use a pre-made save to activate the glitch* before you normally could. The only differences to a normal run are that you can use the glitch from the very beginning and that you can skip buying a horse and setting up a glitch file with it.

*A save with you standing next to a horse and a door, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter what kind of character. You enter the door and mount the horse and then load the real save.

EDIT:
Actually, it might not be as simple as I said in the last bit. The horse used to activate the glitch probably does matter and I don't think it's been checked if the character used matters (amount of stamina?). Anyway, that's not as related to this thread as it is to the planning thread.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-12-12 01:10:19 pm

Claimh Happy

NG+ refers to an actual feature in the game. Runs under this category are those which make use of an intended feature of the game to begin a new playthrough with various (usually time-saving) changes compared to the initial playthrough. I don't care how slippery the slope associated with the word "intended" is. Unless a game specifically tells you otherwise in a tutorial or the instruction booklet, you are not supposed to be able to change how the game loads a save. SDA bases the legitimacy of its Segmented runs on the fact that when you save the game, the game can only load that save in one specific way. If not, there would be no way to verify the run.

Paraxade

2011-12-12 06:18:52 pm

For the record, OoT 3D has a glitch where you can start the game with any item by doing things with a different file right before starting the game, and afaik it's being allowed as ng+.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-12-12 06:43:26 pm

Claimh Happy

Does OoT3d have an actual NG+ feature? I don't mind that the glitch is allowed, but I really don't like calling it NG+.

romscout

2011-12-12 06:48:01 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Quote from Paraxade:

For the record, OoT 3D has a glitch where you can start the game with any item by doing things with a different file right before starting the game, and afaik it's being allowed as ng+.

I didn't think SDA had taken an official stance on this yet. The OoT 3D runners call it NG+, but has it actually been presented as a discussion for SDA yet? There are an increasing number of examples for games where you can start a new game from the title screen but with the game already corrupted, and as far as I know there's been no ruling on how to handle these. Another big example is 1st gen Pokemon.

I thought what Kotti was suggesting was to load a save at the start of the game though after setting up the glitch, which is completely different from starting from the title screen. That isn't NG+ and it wouldn't be allowed. Basically Vorpal's post in the very first reply of this thread sums up what I think would make the most sense for this game: you can split up saves during a single playthrough, but every single load of a save would have to be timed.

[quote="Paraxade"]For the record, OoT 3D has a glitch where you can start the game with any item by doing things with a different file right before starting the game, and afaik it's being allowed as ng+.[/quote]
I didn't think SDA had taken an official stance on this yet. The OoT 3D runners call it NG+, but has it actually been presented as a discussion for SDA yet? There are an increasing number of examples for games where you can start a new game from the title screen but with the game already corrupted, and as far as I know there's been no ruling on how to handle these. Another big example is 1st gen Pokemon.

I thought what Kotti was suggesting was to load a save at the start of the game though after setting up the glitch, which is completely different from starting from the title screen. That isn't NG+ and it wouldn't be allowed. Basically Vorpal's post in the very first reply of this thread sums up what I think would make the most sense for this game: you can split up saves during a single playthrough, but every single load of a save would have to be timed.