Shadowgate (NES)

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2013-07-01 09:08:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2013-07-01 09:07:47 pm

ZenicReverie: 2013-07-01 09:07:30 pm

ZenicReverie: 2013-07-01 09:06:43 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-26 11:18:14 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-26 11:17:14 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-26 11:16:59 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 04:15:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 03:49:15 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 03:48:38 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:55:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:34:46 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:33:12 pm

2011-04-25 10:07:23 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Anyone care? Anyone have advice other than follow the TAS route? I'm going to be evaluating that soon to see if the number of page flips can be reduced.

Strategies:
1) Moving the cursor takes precedence over interacting, so button mashing the dialogue boxes is possible so long as you're holding a direction on the D-pad in order to avoid unnecessary interactions.
2) Navigating the menu is fast, and 'Speak' wraps to the left torch, and 'Save wraps to the right torch.
3) Taking a torch brings your inventory to the page with torches; likewise, taking an item will take your inventory to the last page with a free space. Further, opening a container will take your inventory to a page between your spells and the first page; closing the container will put your inventory on the first page.

Does anyone know how much time is on a torch? It seems that each screen transition takes a chunk of time, and then each action takes a smaller amount of time. Route planning is proving more difficult due to not knowing at what points lighting a torch would be necessary. I have some ideas and I've been modularizing portions of the map that make the most sense when done in sequence due to the fact it would take additional time in any other order.

I'm going to look into this glitch: YouTube Glitch Link
Might be too random for non-TAS.

Beginning of Game
-----------------------
Open Skull
Take Key 1
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Use Key 1 on Door
Enter Door (default)

Open book
Open passage (default)
Take Key 2
Take Torch
-----------------------
End in Book Room

From Book Room
----------------------
Go Back

Use Key 2 on Door
Enter Door (default)

Take Sword
Take Sling

Go Back

Go Straight
----------------------
End in Book Room

From Book Room
-------------------------
Enter Passage

Take Arrow
Use Left Torch
Enter Door (default)

Enter Left Door (default)

Use lit torch on Torch(Special)
Take Cloak
Take Torch (regular)
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Look at Epor x2
Speak Epor
Go Up (default)
--------------------------
End in Broom Room

From Crossroad Room
---------------------------
Open Right Door (default)
Go Right (default)

Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Take Stone
Enter Waterfall

Hit Rock
Open Bag
Take White Gem
Take Blue Gem
Take Red Gem

Go Back

Go Back

Go Back

Open Left Door (default)
Go Left (default)

Use White Gem on Hole
Take Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door

Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear

Go Back

Go Back

Go Right

Use Sphere on Lake
Use Torch on Lake
Take Key 3
Take Sphere

Go Back
---------------------------
End in Crossroad Room

From Crossroad or Broom Room
----------------------------
Enter Coffin Room

Open Coffin
Use Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter

Exit Room
----------------------------
End Crossroad or Broom Room

From Broom Room
-----------------------
Use Hammer on Middle Door
Use Cloak on Self
Use Key 3 on Door

Enter Door (default)

Use Sphere on Fire
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Attempt to cross (default)
Use Spear on Troll
Go forward (default)

Use Stone on Sling
Use Sling on Cyclops
Use Well crank
Use Sword on Cyclops
Open Bucket
Take Gauntlet
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Enter First Door (default)
Open Drawer
Open Scroll 3
Open Scroll 4
Take Key 5
Take Glasses
Use Gauntlet on Self
Use Glasses on Self
Use Red Gem on hole
Open Book
Enter Door (default)

Speak Terrak
Open Globe
Take Key 6

Go Back

Go Back
--------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room

From Two Left Doors Room
-------------------------
Enter Second Door (default)
Use chain rock
Take Water
Enter Door (default)

[Have Used Gauntlet]
Take Flute
Use Flute
Take Ring
Go Back

Go Back
--------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room

From Two Left Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Door (default)

Use Fire on Carpet
Take Key 4
Use Key 5 on Door
Use Key 6 on Door
Use Key 4 on Door
Enter Right Door (default)

Go up stairs
Use Sphinx answer
Go up stairs

Open Map
Take Star
Take Rod
Go up ladder

Use Arrow on Lady
Take Blade
Go Back

Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room

From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Left Door
Move to Ladder/Take horn
Use Water on Hellhound
Take Horn
Go Up Ladder

Use Star on Wyvern
Take Talisman
Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room

From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Center Door (default)

Enter Left Door (default)

Use Rod on Slot
Take Wand
Go Left

Open Bag 3
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
Go Back

Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room

From Broom Room
-----------------------
Go Down

Go Back

Go Back

Use Bottle 2
Go Right

Use Wand
Take Staff

Go Back

Go Right

Enter Door

Go Up
----------------------
End Broom Room

From Epor Room
----------------------
Take Bottle 2
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Use Blue Gem
Open Scroll 2
Enter Door (default)
----------------------
End in Epor Room

From Broom Room
---------------------------
Enter Door (default)

Enter Door (default)

Attempt to cross (default)
Speak Humana
Enter Door (default)

Enter Door (default)
---------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room

From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Center Door

Go Right

Use Scepter on Skeleton King
Use Ring on hole
Go Down

Take Torch
Go Forward

Speak Illumina
Go Right

Speak Motari
Go Forward

Use Right Lever
Use Center Lever
Use Right Lever
Take Orb
Go Back

Go Back

Go Forward (default)

Open Well
Use Big Coin
Move into Well

Use Mallet on Gong
Use Gold Coin on Ferryman
Move to Raft (default)

Use Blade on Staff
Use Orb on Staff
Use Talisman on Sword Pillar
Use Horn
Enter Skull Door (default)

Use Staff on Behemoth
-------------------------
End Game

Open Door
Open Skull
Take Key 1
Enter Door
Use Key 1
Enter Door
Open Book
Take Key 2
Go Back
Use Key 2
Enter Door
Take Sling
Take Sword
Go Back
Go Forward
Go Right
Open Right Door
Enter Right Door
Open Door
Enter Door
Take Stone
Enter Passage
Hit Rock
Open Bag
Take White Gem
Take Blue Gem
Take Red Gem
Go Back
Go Back
Go Back
Open Left Door
Enter Left Door
Use Stone on Sling
Use White Gem
Take Torch
Take Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Right Door
Use Sphere
Use Lit Torch
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Go Back
Go Back
Take Torch (special)
Open Passage
Enter Passage
Take Arrow
Use Left Torch
Enter Passage
Go Left
Use Lit Torch on Torch (special)
Take Cloak
Take Torch
Open Door
Enter Door
Open Passage
Enter Passage
Use Torch

Use Blue Gem
Switch to Spell Page
Open Scroll
Enter Door
Read Epor
Read Epor
Speak Epor
Take Bottle 2 (leftmost bottle)
Climb Rope
Use Cloak on Self
Take Broom
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Enter Door
Use Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door
Go Forward
Use Spear
Go Forward
Use Sling on Cyclops
Use Sword on Cyclops
Use Crank
Open Bucket
Take Gauntlet
Open Door
Enter Door
Enter Lower Left Door
Open Drawer
Open Scroll 3
Open Scroll 4
Take Key 5
Take Glasses
Use Gauntlet on Self
Use Glasses on Self
Use Red Gem
Switch to Spell Page
Open Book
Enter Passage
Speak Terrakk
Open Globe
Take Key 6
Go Back
Go Back
Open Door
Enter Door
Use Torch

Use Lit Torch on Rug
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Enter Right Door
Use Broom on Sphinx
Go up stairs
Open Star Map
Go up ladder
Use Arrow on Werewolf
Take Blade
Go Back
Take Star
Take Rod
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Enter Left Door
Use Rod
Take Wand
Go Left
Open Bag
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
Go Back
Go Back
Go Back
----------------------
For an element of Randomness do the following
- Enter Right Door
- Go up Stairs (Sphinx must give riddle for Mirror)
- Use any item on Sphinx to be teleported to Casket Room
==========OR==========
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
----------------------
Open Lower Right Casket
Use Lit Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter
Enter Left Casket
Go Down
Go Back
Go Back
Use Bottle 2 on Self
Enter Right Door
Use Wand on Snake
Use Blade on Staff
Take Staff
Go Back
Enter Left Door
Take Torch
Enter Door
Climb Rope
Enter Door
Enter Door
Go Forward
Speak Humana
Enter Door
Enter Top Left Door
Use False Tile
Take Water
Enter Archway
Take Flute
Use Torch

Use Flute
Take Ring
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Top Door
Enter Left Door
Go Up Ladder
Use Water on Hellhound
Go Up Ladder
Use Star on Dragon
Take Talisman
Go Back
Take Horn
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Enter Right Door
Use Scepter on Throne
Use Ring on Hole
Enter Trap Door
Go Forward
Switch to Spells
Use Illumina
Enter Right Passage
Speak Motari
Enter Door
Use Right Lever
Use Center Lever
Use Right Lever
Take Orb
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Open Well
Use Orb on Staff
Use Big Coin on Well
Use Hammer on Gong
Use Gold Coin on Ferryman
Board Raft
Use Talisman on Sword Slot
Use Horn
Enter Doorway
Use Staff on Behemoth
Watch Ending

Not included in the above is the section where you just go back from the Three Locked Doors Room to the Broom Room. Also, some transition rooms may not be included as they're rather trivial to infer. The sections are ordered here according to the TAS roughly. What happens in each section isn't exact to it as I'm still exploring possibilities. Also not included is torch use. I figure I'll just play that part by ear and for now order based on the items and see where I can fit using a torch in later as long as it's not too disruptive to the inventory process. One thing that could change if the section order changes is the item picked up for the Sphinx; the horseshoe is currently picked up to answer him, but the map can just as easily be gotten after taking the last item from the drawer without too much time wasted.

Please take a look and see if there are any other places that make sense to always to in sequence or if there's a possibility for splitting areas up as well. Normally screen transitions are the most costly, so repeating movement through an area should be reduced as much as possible. Next step is to list out each possible route and find one that reduces page turns and taking items that result in a page turn. The baseline will be the TAS, which I'll get up as soon as possible.

This all may be pushed back 'til next week because I still need to get around to verifying one more game.

Thread title:

Anyone care? Anyone have advice other than follow the TAS route? I'm going to be evaluating that soon to see if the number of page flips can be reduced.

Strategies:
1) Moving the cursor takes precedence over interacting, so button mashing the dialogue boxes is possible so long as you're holding a direction on the D-pad in order to avoid unnecessary interactions.
2) Navigating the menu is fast, and 'Speak' wraps to the left torch, and 'Save wraps to the right torch.
3) Taking a torch brings your inventory to the page with torches; likewise, taking an item will take your inventory to the last page with a free space. Further, opening a container will take your inventory to a page between your spells and the first page; closing the container will put your inventory on the first page.

Does anyone know how much time is on a torch? It seems that each screen transition takes a chunk of time, and then each action takes a smaller amount of time. Route planning is proving more difficult due to not knowing at what points lighting a torch would be necessary. I have some ideas and I've been modularizing portions of the map that make the most sense when done in sequence due to the fact it would take additional time in any other order.

I'm going to look into this glitch: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTmGGhsO3yc]YouTube Glitch Link[/url]
Might be too random for non-TAS.
[hidden="Old Break Down"]
[hidden="Section 1: Beginning"]
Beginning of Game
-----------------------
Open Skull
Take Key 1
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Use Key 1 on Door
Enter Door (default)

Open book
Open passage (default)
Take Key 2
Take Torch
-----------------------
End in Book Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 2: Sword and Sling"]
From Book Room
----------------------
Go Back

Use Key 2 on Door
Enter Door (default)

Take Sword
Take Sling

Go Back

Go Straight
----------------------
End in Book Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 3: An Arrow to Point the Way"]
From Book Room
-------------------------
Enter Passage

Take Arrow
Use Left Torch
Enter Door (default)

Enter Left Door (default)

Use lit torch on Torch(Special)
Take Cloak
Take Torch (regular)
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Look at Epor x2
Speak Epor
Go Up (default)
--------------------------
End in Broom Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 4: The Dragon and the Lake"]
From Crossroad Room
---------------------------
Open Right Door (default)
Go Right (default)

Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Take Stone
Enter Waterfall

Hit Rock
Open Bag
Take White Gem
Take Blue Gem
Take Red Gem

Go Back

Open Left Door (default)
Go Left (default)

Use White Gem on Hole
Take Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door

Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear

Go Back

Go Right

Use Sphere on Lake
Use Torch on Lake
Take Key 3
Take Sphere

Go Back
---------------------------
End in Crossroad Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 5: The Mummy"]
From Crossroad or Broom Room
----------------------------
Enter Coffin Room

Open Coffin
Use Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter

Exit Room
----------------------------
End Crossroad or Broom Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 6: Hallway of Doom"]
From Broom Room
-----------------------
Use Hammer on Middle Door
Use Cloak on Self
Use Key 3 on Door

Enter Door (default)

Use Sphere on Fire
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Attempt to cross (default)
Use Spear on Troll
Go forward (default)

Use Stone on Sling
Use Sling on Cyclops
Use Well crank
Use Sword on Cyclops
Open Bucket
Take Gauntlet
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Enter First Door (default)
Open Drawer
Open Scroll 3
Open Scroll 4
Take Key 5
Take Glasses
Use Gauntlet on Self
Use Glasses on Self
Use Red Gem on hole
Open Book
Enter Door (default)

Speak Terrak
Open Globe
Take Key 6

Go Back

Go Back
--------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 7: Fountain of Acid"]
From Two Left Doors Room
-------------------------
Enter Second Door (default)
Use chain rock
Take Water
Enter Door (default)

[Have Used Gauntlet]
Take Flute
Use Flute
Take Ring
Go Back

Go Back
--------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 8: Unlocking and Answering"]
From Two Left Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Door (default)

Use Fire on Carpet
Take Key 4
Use Key 5 on Door
Use Key 6 on Door
Use Key 4 on Door
Enter Right Door (default)

Go up stairs
Use Sphinx answer
Go up stairs

Open Map
Take Star
Take Rod
Go up ladder

Use Arrow on Lady
Take Blade
Go Back

Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 9: Horn and Talisman"]
From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Left Door
Move to Ladder/Take horn
Use Water on Hellhound
Take Horn
Go Up Ladder

Use Star on Wyvern
Take Talisman
Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 10: Retrieving the Wand"]
From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Center Door (default)

Enter Left Door (default)

Use Rod on Slot
Take Wand
Go Left

Open Bag 3
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
Go Back

Go Back

Go Back
----------------------------
End Three Locked Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 11: Getting the Staff"]
From Broom Room
-----------------------
Go Down

Go Back

Use Bottle 2
Go Right

Use Wand
Take Staff

Go Back

Go Right

Enter Door

Go Up
----------------------
End Broom Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 12: Humana"]
From Epor Room
----------------------
Take Bottle 2
Open Door (default)
Enter Door (default)

Use Blue Gem
Open Scroll 2
Enter Door (default)
----------------------
End in Epor Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 13: There and Back Again"]
From Broom Room
---------------------------
Enter Door (default)

Enter Door (default)

Attempt to cross (default)
Speak Humana
Enter Door (default)

Enter Door (default)
---------------------------
End Two Left Doors Room
[/hidden]
[hidden="Section 14: Race to the End"]
From Three Locked Doors Room
----------------------------
Enter Center Door

Go Right

Use Scepter on Skeleton King
Use Ring on hole
Go Down

Take Torch
Go Forward

Speak Illumina
Go Right

Speak Motari
Go Forward

Use Right Lever
Use Center Lever
Use Right Lever
Take Orb
Go Back

Go Back

Go Forward (default)

Open Well
Use Big Coin
Move into Well

Use Mallet on Gong
Use Gold Coin on Ferryman
Move to Raft (default)

Use Blade on Staff
Use Orb on Staff
Use Talisman on Sword Pillar
Use Horn
Enter Skull Door (default)

Use Staff on Behemoth
-------------------------
End Game
[/hidden]
[/hidden]

[hidden="Current Route"]
[hidden="Torch 1"]
Open Door
Open Skull
Take Key 1
Enter Door
Use Key 1
Enter Door
Open Book
Take Key 2
Go Back
Use Key 2
Enter Door
Take Sling
Take Sword
Go Back
Go Forward
Go Right
Open Right Door
Enter Right Door
Open Door
Enter Door
Take Stone
Enter Passage
Hit Rock
Open Bag
Take White Gem
Take Blue Gem
Take Red Gem
Go Back
Go Back
Go Back
Open Left Door
Enter Left Door
Use Stone on Sling
Use White Gem
Take Torch
Take Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Right Door
Use Sphere
Use Lit Torch
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Go Back
Go Back
Take Torch (special)
Open Passage
Enter Passage
Take Arrow
Use Left Torch
Enter Passage
Go Left
Use Lit Torch on Torch (special)
Take Cloak
Take Torch
Open Door
Enter Door
Open Passage
Enter Passage
Use Torch
[/hidden]
[hidden="Torch 2"]
Use Blue Gem
Switch to Spell Page
Open Scroll
Enter Door
Read Epor
Read Epor
Speak Epor
Take Bottle 2 (leftmost bottle)
Climb Rope
Use Cloak on Self
Take Broom
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Enter Door
Use Sphere
Open Door
Enter Door
Go Forward
Use Spear
Go Forward
Use Sling on Cyclops
Use Sword on Cyclops
Use Crank
Open Bucket
Take Gauntlet
Open Door
Enter Door
Enter Lower Left Door
Open Drawer
Open Scroll 3
Open Scroll 4
Take Key 5
Take Glasses
Use Gauntlet on Self
Use Glasses on Self
Use Red Gem
Switch to Spell Page
Open Book
Enter Passage
Speak Terrakk
Open Globe
Take Key 6
Go Back
Go Back
Open Door
Enter Door
Use Torch
[/hidden]
[hidden="Torch 3"]
Use Lit Torch on Rug
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Enter Right Door
Use Broom on Sphinx
Go up stairs
Open Star Map
Go up ladder
Use Arrow on Werewolf
Take Blade
Go Back
Take Star
Take Rod
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Enter Left Door
Use Rod
Take Wand
Go Left
Open Bag
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
Go Back
Go Back
Go Back
----------------------
For an element of Randomness do the following
- Enter Right Door
- Go up Stairs (Sphinx must give riddle for Mirror)
- Use any item on Sphinx to be teleported to Casket Room
==========OR==========
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
- Go Back
----------------------
Open Lower Right Casket
Use Lit Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter
Enter Left Casket
Go Down
Go Back
Go Back
Use Bottle 2 on Self
Enter Right Door
Use Wand on Snake
Use Blade on Staff
Take Staff
Go Back
Enter Left Door
Take Torch
Enter Door
Climb Rope
Enter Door
Enter Door
Go Forward
Speak Humana
Enter Door
Enter Top Left Door
Use False Tile
Take Water
Enter Archway
Take Flute
Use Torch
[/hidden]
[hidden="Torch 4"]
Use Flute
Take Ring
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Top Door
Enter Left Door
Go Up Ladder
Use Water on Hellhound
Go Up Ladder
Use Star on Dragon
Take Talisman
Go Back
Take Horn
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Enter Right Door
Use Scepter on Throne
Use Ring on Hole
Enter Trap Door
Go Forward
Switch to Spells
Use Illumina
Enter Right Passage
Speak Motari
Enter Door
Use Right Lever
Use Center Lever
Use Right Lever
Take Orb
Go Back
Go Back
Enter Center Door
Open Well
Use Orb on Staff
Use Big Coin on Well
Use Hammer on Gong
Use Gold Coin on Ferryman
Board Raft
Use Talisman on Sword Slot
Use Horn
Enter Doorway
Use Staff on Behemoth
Watch Ending
[/hidden]
[/hidden]
Not included in the above is the section where you just go back from the Three Locked Doors Room to the Broom Room. Also, some transition rooms may not be included as they're rather trivial to infer. The sections are ordered here according to the TAS roughly. What happens in each section isn't exact to it as I'm still exploring possibilities. Also not included is torch use. I figure I'll just play that part by ear and for now order based on the items and see where I can fit using a torch in later as long as it's not too disruptive to the inventory process. One thing that could change if the section order changes is the item picked up for the Sphinx; the horseshoe is currently picked up to answer him, but the map can just as easily be gotten after taking the last item from the drawer without too much time wasted.

Please take a look and see if there are any other places that make sense to always to in sequence or if there's a possibility for splitting areas up as well. Normally screen transitions are the most costly, so repeating movement through an area should be reduced as much as possible. Next step is to list out each possible route and find one that reduces page turns and taking items that result in a page turn. The baseline will be the TAS, which I'll get up as soon as possible.

This all may be pushed back 'til next week because I still need to get around to verifying one more game.

MASTER-88

2011-04-25 10:21:16 am

Master-88

I think TAS route might be just best.

Its best are fast, but hell yeah this seems quite interesting game speedrun. Good luck Smiley

Vugmer

2011-04-25 10:43:22 am

Cigar Man

I'd be interested in seeing a run of this game. If I remember right, I think that Twin Galaxies actually has a pretty good time posted for this game.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:18:49 pm

2011-04-25 10:52:02 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Twin Galaxies time is 14:xx, so I'm going to aim for sub-14.

Edit:
Actually, looking at this old "TAS" it seems like a goal of 13 minutes wouldn't be too outside the realm of possibility. Given this is 14:36 and he does certain things that just add time, it can definitely be improved. Looking at the other videos, I feel like the route may not be optimal and they've fallen into the mode of improving the original route without expanding the possibilities, but I'm just speculating; I'll take a closer look at it this week and determine if there's anything to be saved.

The current TAS is less than 9 minutes, but frame precise menu navigation puts it leagues ahead.

Darkwing Duck

2011-04-25 12:37:07 pm

Highly Evolved

In that old TAS, where do you hope to gain 36 seconds?

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:42:55 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-25 12:42:20 pm

2011-04-25 12:41:44 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

In that old TAS, where do you hope to gain 36 seconds?

Better route, using Illumina right before Motari, never using the 'Move' option, not 'Hit'ting the secret door to the arrow room, using the wrap around menu, and so on...

I'd have to watch it again to get more specific on "better route," but what I mentioned are the most specific things that come to mind.

RaneofSOTN

2011-04-25 02:10:58 pm

I want off the ride....

I'd like to help you Zenic but rather i haven't played shadowgate in a while and i tend to forget one key aspect of it. I had a route for myself planned out which I thought negated much of the back tracking and generally limited what i picked up to only what was necessary (yeah i picked up a spear to save on a trip past the bridge) and what not. But i always failed causae it came down to page management.....

hopefully you can set something up to guide you through that page management and know where things will be.

ZenicReverie

2011-04-25 02:25:15 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I'm going to be mapping and planning out the page/inventory management the best I can. First step is knowing how the items can be picked up, how that influences the inventory, and what items need to be grouped together. I'll do a little work tonight (need to do some verifying first), but if it comes down to it, I'll use the current TAS route and should definitely be able to get sub-14.

Thanks for the support, and if you still have the route, I'd like to take a look at it. Any information would be helpful to consider.

The spear is necessary actually, as you can't use Humana to pass the bridge unless the troll has the spear in hand. If you know of another way, I'd like to consider it.

RaneofSOTN

2011-04-25 05:09:47 pm

I want off the ride....

bug me sometime zenic and i'll see what i can do stream wise. I had an old stream somewhere in my ustream background with me messing with speed. I didn't super serious it... but...

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6131993

that was me at night messing around. Maybe i missed something in there. Its like 34 minutes (wayy to long) but it was more or less me showing off the game and i'm pretty sure you can get what is better or not.

theseawolf1

2011-04-25 09:11:32 pm

SGL Scrublord

If you have anything you want to try out, put it on here and I'll help look into it. Never hurts to have extra point of view, though I'm a bit rusty on Shadowgate myself. One thing to check might be animation times (or maybe just overall smaller screen equaling a faster cursor overall) on the NES vs the Gameboy Color release. If only I didn't have these finals to worry about.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 03:57:42 pm

2011-04-26 11:52:27 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I've added what I think each section of the game would reasonably look like. Some things are out of sequence with the TAS, but could easily be brought more in line. These are just my current notes that I had scribbled with a route I was thinking of, and then I decided to put the sections in the TAS order instead.

If anyone has some extra time, it'd be good to have a list of routes people think are plausible, and to test it we'd need something like the following:

Take Key 1
Use Key 1
Take Key 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Key 2
Take Sling
Take Sword
Take Torch
Take Torch = 1
Take Arrow
Use Torch
Take Torch = 2
Take Torch = 3
Take Cloak
Learn Epor
Use Cloak
Change to Spells
Use Epor
Take Bottle 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Leave Key 1
Take Stone
Take White Gem
Take Red Gem
Take Blue Gem
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Stone on Sling
Use Torch = 2
Use White Gem
Take Sphere
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Use Sphere
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Take Sceptre
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Use Sphere
Use Spear
Change to Page 1
Use Sling
Use Sword
Take Gauntlet
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Learn Terrakk
Learn Illumina
Take Glasses
Take Key 5
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Glasses
Use Gauntlet
Change to Page 1
Use Red Gem
Change to Container
Change to Spells
Learn Motari
Use Terrakk
Take Key 6
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Take Water
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Horseshoe
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Flute
Take Ring
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Change to Page 2
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Change to Page 3
Use Horseshoe
Take Star
Take Rod
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Use Arrow
Take Blade
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to Page 2
Use Water
Take Horn
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Star
Take Talisman
Use Rod
Take Wand
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Bottle 2
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 3
Use Wand
Use Blade
Take Staff
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Use Torch = 0
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Use Humana
Change to Page 1
Use Scepter
Change to Page 2
Use Ring
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Illumina
Use Motari
Take Orb
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to page 2
Use Big Coin
Use Gold Coin
Use Talisman
Use Horn
Use Orb on Staff
Use Staff

I was just going to give a short example, but here's the TAS (I hope with no mistakes), and this should give us enough information to determine if there's a faster route. Things not considered is cursor movement to get to the needed item even if it's on the current page, but that should be negligible compared to page turns. I didn't include the page turns for learning spells when not on the spell page since it should be obvious that if you've turned to the spell page before learning a spell you'll have avoided this turn; otherwise, consider it present. Along those same lines, the page turns when taking items from a container are not listed since those are unavoidable.

I've added what I think each section of the game would reasonably look like. Some things are out of sequence with the TAS, but could easily be brought more in line. These are just my current notes that I had scribbled with a route I was thinking of, and then I decided to put the sections in the TAS order instead.

If anyone has some extra time, it'd be good to have a list of routes people think are plausible, and to test it we'd need something like the following:

[hidden="Inventory Script for TAS"]
Take Key 1
Use Key 1
Take Key 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Key 2
Take Sling
Take Sword
Take Torch
Take Torch = 1
Take Arrow
Use Torch
Take Torch = 2
Take Torch = 3
Take Cloak
Learn Epor
Use Cloak
Change to Spells
Use Epor
Take Bottle 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Leave Key 1
Take Stone
Take White Gem
Take Red Gem
Take Blue Gem
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Stone on Sling
Use Torch = 2
Use White Gem
Take Sphere
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Use Sphere
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Take Sceptre
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Use Sphere
Use Spear
Change to Page 1
Use Sling
Use Sword
Take Gauntlet
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Learn Terrakk
Learn Illumina
Take Glasses
Take Key 5
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Glasses
Use Gauntlet
Change to Page 1
Use Red Gem
Change to Container
Change to Spells
Learn Motari
Use Terrakk
Take Key 6
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Take Water
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Horseshoe
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Flute
Take Ring
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Change to Page 2
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Change to Page 3
Use Horseshoe
Take Star
Take Rod
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Use Arrow
Take Blade
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to Page 2
Use Water
Take Horn
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Star
Take Talisman
Use Rod
Take Wand
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Bottle 2
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 3
Use Wand
Use Blade
Take Staff
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Use Torch = 0
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Use Humana
Change to Page 1
Use Scepter
Change to Page 2
Use Ring
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Illumina
Use Motari
Take Orb
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to page 2
Use Big Coin
Use Gold Coin
Use Talisman
Use Horn
Use Orb on Staff
Use Staff
[/hidden]

I was just going to give a short example, but here's the TAS (I hope with no mistakes), and this should give us enough information to determine if there's a faster route. Things not considered is cursor movement to get to the needed item even if it's on the current page, but that should be negligible compared to page turns. I didn't include the page turns for learning spells when not on the spell page since it should be obvious that if you've turned to the spell page before learning a spell you'll have avoided this turn; otherwise, consider it present. Along those same lines, the page turns when taking items from a container are not listed since those are unavoidable.

theseawolf1

2011-04-27 02:57:33 pm

SGL Scrublord

Doing a little digging (Randil's discussion on the TASforums), it appears the Sphinx riddle is based on the frame you try to move on in the Sphinx's room. Given the precision of it, it might be a bit more sane to grab 2-3 items in the Terrak room, though that'll make more items in the pages. Also, I'm thinking from watching it you might need more torches than 3, but I can't find what kind of timer the torches run on. The Sphinx info is on the bottom of the first page: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2632&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-30 03:20:02 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 07:21:55 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 07:17:07 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 07:15:18 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 07:13:43 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 06:56:19 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 06:55:57 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 06:28:27 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 06:25:08 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 06:17:46 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 05:42:13 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 04:26:37 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-27 04:23:55 pm

2011-04-27 04:20:16 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

There were a couple of things missed in the TAS list I made, so I updated it now. I made a new route. It sadly has a forced torch grab/use somewhere in it, but makes things generally easier. Help me improve it further! I must be missing something here because current benefits for this route over the TAS so far is 3 overall actions saved, but number of inventory page transitions saved is 5, and I don't think I'm doing 2 extra things, so I've probably missed something more from the TAS route that should be there since page transitions should be the only difference.
After testing the route, I figured out some issues and worked them out. Only slightly faster now.

One notable change that isn't obvious from this route is in the Crossroad room, I never open the middle door. Another difference is the TAS drops key 1 in the lake, but I take the map while on the container window, which causes a double inventory change (one to the page the item goes to, and one that takes the inventory back to the container). Maybe this would be better avoided by just grabbing the map before opening the container, but it would only remove one transition because I'm not on the last page for the item to appear.

What I can't readily compare is the navigation of the inventory aside from the transitions. Is navigation faster overall with this route? In any case, 4 or 5 transitions probably makes up for it.

Take Key 1
Use Key 1
Take Key 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Key 2
Take Sling
Take Sword
Take Stone
Take White Gem
Take Red Gem
Take Blue Gem
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Stone on Sling
Use White Gem
Take Torch = 1
Take Sphere
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Use Sphere
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Take Torch
Take Arrow
Use Torch
Take Cloak
Use Cloak
Take Bottle 2
Take Torch = 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Learn Epor
Use Epor
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Use Sphere
Use Spear
Change to Page 1
Use Sling
Use Sword
Take Gauntlet
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Learn Terrakk
Learn Illumina
Take Glasses
Take Key 5
Take Map
(Container item transition)
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Glasses
Use Gauntlet
Change to Page 1
Use Red Gem
Change to Container
Change to Spells
Learn Motari
Use Terrakk
Take Key 6
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 0
Use Torch on Rug
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Use Map
Use Arrow
Take Blade
Take Star
Take Rod
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Rod
Take Wand
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Change to Page 2
Use Bottle 2
Use Wand
Use Blade
Take Staff
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Torch = 1 (Broom Room)
Use Torch = 0
Use Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Humana
Take Water
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Flute
Use Flute
Take Ring
Use Water
Change to Page 2
Use Star
Take Talisman
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Horn
Use Scepter
Use Ring
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Illumina
Use Motari
Take Orb
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Orb
Change to Page 2
On Staff
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to Page 2
Use Big Coin
Use Gold Coin
Use Talisman
Use Horn
Use Staff

I haven't tested this route btw, if someone can run through this and let me know if the torch use is good (it may need to be moved around) it'd be appreciated. I won't be able to test it out until next week. Okay, I've tested this route, torches should work out perfectly. Still no clue if this route would be faster than TAS overall. It'd be good to get Randil or someone like that to help test. I'm going to explore more route change possibilities as well.

Quote from theseawolf1:

Doing a little digging (Randil's discussion on the TASforums), it appears the Sphinx riddle is based on the frame you try to move on in the Sphinx's room. Given the precision of it, it might be a bit more sane to grab 2-3 items in the Terrak room, though that'll make more items in the pages. Also, I'm thinking from watching it you might need more torches than 3, but I can't find what kind of timer the torches run on. The Sphinx info is on the bottom of the first page: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2632&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The torches appear to run on a per action time. Just leaving the game running doesn't seem to cause the torch to go down at all (it'll never become a small torch). Someone looking at the memory should be able to locate the value(s), and then it should be pretty easy to see how that value changes.

The Sphinx is the only luck driven part of the run, and I've had to deal with that kind of luck before, it's only a 1 in 6. Other options are to grab the bellows, which is fairly equivalent to the Map, or the Mirror, which takes longer to navigate the map, but you have no inventory transitions in this case. If it's based on frame number upon entering though, then it's not every reliable.

Random question: if that rock is quite loose, why does hitting it with a sword, scepter, spear, hammer, or broom result in nothing happening, but hitting it with my hand knocks it right off.

Edit:
I didn't even know this, but apparently using the Flute on the Sphinx will bring you to the Troll. It was mentioned in that TAS forum thread, but Randil only mentioned he'd look into it, not if he found it to be not worthwhile. It would reduce the screen transitions by a net 1 and possibly reduce dialogue; however, you'd need to change to the flute, and at the only point it's beneficial your inventory will be on the first page (which won't have the flute).

This isn't something to consider with the above route, but it's something to keep in mind for future routes.

The glasses glitch is unpredictable without being able to check memory addresses. Seems it starts linking to certain functions in the code, one time Motari appeared in my inventory, and when I tried to use it the game thought I was leaving bag 2 in the oil room, then it said my shield melted and I died (game froze). Pretty sure you could find a way to just trigger the end of the game with this if someone dug in enough. I also ended up trying to take a torch=1 and ended up taking the Staff, which would save significant time. Anyway, more for the TAS/major-skips.

Edit #2: okay, slight miscalculation while testing the route. Using the Orb on page 3 on the staff on page 2 reverts the inventory back to page 3. I also seemed to have thought the horn disappears on use, which it doesn't, so I need to adjust things a little.

Edit #3: Okay, re-worked the route. Use the star and get the talisman before taking the horn, and added another 2 screen transitions. That should bring the action/inventory screens to an equal 3 each.

There were a couple of things missed in the TAS list I made, so I updated it now. I made a new route. It sadly has a forced torch grab/use somewhere in it, but makes things generally easier. Help me improve it further![s] I must be missing something here because current benefits for this route over the TAS so far is 3 overall actions saved, but number of inventory page transitions saved is 5, and I don't think I'm doing 2 extra things, so I've probably missed something more from the TAS route that should be there since page transitions should be the only difference. [/s]
After testing the route, I figured out some issues and worked them out. Only slightly faster now.

One notable change that isn't obvious from this route is in the Crossroad room, I never open the middle door. Another difference is the TAS drops key 1 in the lake, but I take the map while on the container window, which causes a double inventory change (one to the page the item goes to, and one that takes the inventory back to the container). Maybe this would be better avoided by just grabbing the map before opening the container, but it would only remove one transition because I'm not on the last page for the item to appear.

What I can't readily compare is the navigation of the inventory aside from the transitions. Is navigation faster overall with this route? In any case, 4 or 5 transitions probably makes up for it.

[hidden="New Route Suggestion -- Sections: 1->2->4->3->12->6->8->10->11->5->13->7->9->14"]
Take Key 1
Use Key 1
Take Key 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Key 2
Take Sling
Take Sword
Take Stone
Take White Gem
Take Red Gem
Take Blue Gem
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Stone on Sling
Use White Gem
Take Torch = 1
Take Sphere
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Take Shield
Take Hammer
Take Spear
Use Sphere
Take Sphere
Take Key 3
Take Torch
Take Arrow
Use Torch
Take Cloak
Use Cloak
Take Bottle 2
Take Torch = 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Learn Epor
Use Epor
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Hammer
Use Key 3
Use Sphere
Use Spear
Change to Page 1
Use Sling
Use Sword
Take Gauntlet
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Learn Terrakk
Learn Illumina
Take Glasses
Take Key 5
Take Map
(Container item transition)
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Glasses
Use Gauntlet
Change to Page 1
Use Red Gem
Change to Container
Change to Spells
Learn Motari
Use Terrakk
Take Key 6
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 0
Use Torch on Rug
Take Key 4
Use Key 4
Use Key 6
Use Key 5
Use Map
Use Arrow
Take Blade
Take Star
Take Rod
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Rod
Take Wand
Take Big Coin
Take Gold Coin
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Change to Page 2
Use Bottle 2
Use Wand
Use Blade
Take Staff
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Torch = 1 (Broom Room)
Use Torch = 0
Use Torch on Mummy
Take Scepter
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Humana
Take Water
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Flute
Use Flute
Take Ring
Use Water
Change to Page 2
Use Star
Take Talisman
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Take Horn
Use Scepter
Use Ring
Change to Page 2
Change to Page 1
Change to Spells
Use Illumina
Use Motari
Take Orb
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Use Orb
Change to Page 2
On Staff
(Inventory goes to page 3)
Change to Page 2
Use Big Coin
Use Gold Coin
Use Talisman
Use Horn
Use Staff
[/hidden]

[s]I haven't tested this route btw, if someone can run through this and let me know if the torch use is good (it may need to be moved around) it'd be appreciated. I won't be able to test it out until next week.[/s] Okay, I've tested this route, torches should work out perfectly. Still no clue if this route would be faster than TAS overall. It'd be good to get Randil or someone like that to help test. I'm going to explore more route change possibilities as well.

[quote="theseawolf1"]Doing a little digging (Randil's discussion on the TASforums), it appears the Sphinx riddle is based on the frame you try to move on in the Sphinx's room. Given the precision of it, it might be a bit more sane to grab 2-3 items in the Terrak room, though that'll make more items in the pages. Also, I'm thinking from watching it you might need more torches than 3, but I can't find what kind of timer the torches run on. The Sphinx info is on the bottom of the first page: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2632&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/quote]

The torches appear to run on a per action time. Just leaving the game running doesn't seem to cause the torch to go down at all (it'll never become a small torch). Someone looking at the memory should be able to locate the value(s), and then it should be pretty easy to see how that value changes.

The Sphinx is the only luck driven part of the run, and I've had to deal with that kind of luck before, it's only a 1 in 6. Other options are to grab the bellows, which is fairly equivalent to the Map, or the Mirror, which takes longer to navigate the map, but you have no inventory transitions in this case. If it's based on frame number upon entering though, then it's not every reliable.

Random question: if that rock is quite loose, why does hitting it with a sword, scepter, spear, hammer, or broom result in nothing happening, but hitting it with my hand knocks it right off.

Edit:
I didn't even know this, but apparently using the Flute on the Sphinx will bring you to the Troll. It was mentioned in that TAS forum thread, but Randil only mentioned he'd look into it, not if he found it to be not worthwhile. It would reduce the screen transitions by a net 1 and possibly reduce dialogue; however, you'd need to change to the flute, and at the only point it's beneficial your inventory will be on the first page (which won't have the flute).

This isn't something to consider with the above route, but it's something to keep in mind for future routes.

The glasses glitch is unpredictable without being able to check memory addresses. Seems it starts linking to certain functions in the code, one time Motari appeared in my inventory, and when I tried to use it the game thought I was leaving bag 2 in the oil room, then it said my shield melted and I died (game froze). Pretty sure you could find a way to just trigger the end of the game with this if someone dug in enough. I also ended up trying to take a torch=1 and ended up taking the Staff, which would save significant time. Anyway, more for the TAS/major-skips.

Edit #2: okay, slight miscalculation while testing the route. Using the Orb on page 3 on the staff on page 2 reverts the inventory back to page 3. I also seemed to have thought the horn disappears on use, which it doesn't, so I need to adjust things a little.

Edit #3: Okay, re-worked the route. Use the star and get the talisman before taking the horn, and added another 2 screen transitions. That should bring the action/inventory screens to an equal 3 each.

theseawolf1

Edit history:

theseawolf1: 2011-04-27 08:09:10 pm

2011-04-27 07:49:13 pm

SGL Scrublord

Why didn't I just try it sooner, start the game and do things til the torch runs out. Silly me, 60 Looks, 60 Open/Closes (even if you accidentally open or close something that is already opened or closed), 60 Hits (tested on Self), 60 Takes (Even if "You seem to be wasting time," but "You can't take it" doesn't count), 60 Speaks (Again "You seem to be wasting time" counts, but "What you expected hasn't happened" does not), and 60 Moves ("You need to open the door first counts). Lighting a new torch counts as an action on that torch as well, granting 59 more possible actions. I'll dig through the game and see if other unique interaction count or not.

Also, let me just say these games STILL creep me out to no end for some reason. I'll help ya, but I'm getting the heeby jeebies.

Edit: I didn't clearly state it, but I will now. 60 actions = one torch. Any mix of the above will do. I'm looking later on to see if certain things (Picking up shield + dragon attack for example) might count as multiple actions.

Why didn't I just try it sooner, start the game and do things til the torch runs out. Silly me, 60 Looks, 60 Open/Closes (even if you accidentally open or close something that is already opened or closed), 60 Hits (tested on Self), 60 Takes (Even if "You seem to be wasting time," but "You can't take it" doesn't count), 60 Speaks (Again "You seem to be wasting time" counts, but "What you expected hasn't happened" does not), and 60 Moves ("You need to open the door first counts). Lighting a new torch counts as an action on that torch as well, granting 59 more possible actions. I'll dig through the game and see if other unique interaction count or not.

Also, let me just say these games STILL creep me out to no end for some reason. I'll help ya, but I'm getting the heeby jeebies.

Edit: I didn't clearly state it, but I will now. 60 actions = one torch. Any mix of the above will do. I'm looking later on to see if certain things (Picking up shield + dragon attack for example) might count as multiple actions.

ZenicReverie

2011-04-27 10:41:10 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Good to know. Thanks for figuring that out. That'll definitely help in route planning.

I noticed that missing actions (clicking the wrong area) caused me to miss using the torch by a turn or two when I was testing out the route.

Randil

2011-04-28 09:44:34 am

I'm just a friendly TASer visiting

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I didn't even know this, but apparently using the Flute on the Sphinx will bring you to the Troll. It was mentioned in that TAS forum thread, but Randil only mentioned he'd look into it, not if he found it to be not worthwhile. It would reduce the screen transitions by a net 1 and possibly reduce dialogue; however, you'd need to change to the flute, and at the only point it's beneficial your inventory will be on the first page (which won't have the flute).

I have looked into this, and found that it didn't save time, at least not in the TAS. It was a pretty close call, though.

Quote from ZenicReverie:

The glasses glitch is unpredictable without being able to check memory addresses. Seems it starts linking to certain functions in the code, one time Motari appeared in my inventory, and when I tried to use it the game thought I was leaving bag 2 in the oil room, then it said my shield melted and I died (game froze). Pretty sure you could find a way to just trigger the end of the game with this if someone dug in enough. I also ended up trying to take a torch=1 and ended up taking the Staff, which would save significant time. Anyway, more for the TAS/major-skips.

Yes, this is a very interesting glitch, that I haven't been able to use for anything practical. I also think that you might be able to get to the end of the game with this glitch, but I'm not terribly good with hacking that deep into games.

I'm going through your route now, and I will be posting my findings both here and in the TASVideos discussion thread, as they are relevant to both your speedrun and the TAS.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]I didn't even know this, but apparently using the Flute on the Sphinx will bring you to the Troll. It was mentioned in that TAS forum thread, but Randil only mentioned he'd look into it, not if he found it to be not worthwhile. It would reduce the screen transitions by a net 1 and possibly reduce dialogue; however, you'd need to change to the flute, and at the only point it's beneficial your inventory will be on the first page (which won't have the flute).[/quote]
I have looked into this, and found that it didn't save time, at least not in the TAS. It was a pretty close call, though.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]The glasses glitch is unpredictable without being able to check memory addresses. Seems it starts linking to certain functions in the code, one time Motari appeared in my inventory, and when I tried to use it the game thought I was leaving bag 2 in the oil room, then it said my shield melted and I died (game froze). Pretty sure you could find a way to just trigger the end of the game with this if someone dug in enough. I also ended up trying to take a torch=1 and ended up taking the Staff, which would save significant time. Anyway, more for the TAS/major-skips.[/quote]
Yes, this is a very interesting glitch, that I haven't been able to use for anything practical. I also think that you might be able to get to the end of the game with this glitch, but I'm not terribly good with hacking that deep into games.

I'm going through your route now, and I will be posting my findings both here and in the TASVideos discussion thread, as they are relevant to both your speedrun and the TAS.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-30 10:40:48 am

ZenicReverie: 2011-04-28 10:02:28 am

2011-04-28 09:56:24 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Some additional ideas I've been considering:

1) postpone getting the sword and sling until after getting Key 3 and the Sphere. (probably not worth it, but I still want to check it out)
2) postpone getting bottle 2 until on the way to get the Staff. (getting a different torch other than the one in the Epor room would be encouraged... the one next to the cloak.)
3) get the alternate bottle 2 in the same room as the water and horseshoe (means we'll be using horseshoe for the sphinx answer).
4) getting Big Coin and Gold Coin before using the Rod to get the Wand. (will force inventory to last page on the way to get the staff instead of having it on page 1)

Also, since it was shown dropping an item is viable, there are three places I know where it's possible:
Lake you freeze
Oil after using sphere
Fountain of acid

ZenicReverie

2011-04-30 10:45:55 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Randil has posted on TAS videos his findings. The current new route is about 0.5 seconds faster than the TAS, but I think there's still room for improvement. Anyone with time is encouraged to try out variations and throw ideas in the mix.

I think the most probable time savers would come from #2 + (if this causes paging issues, then grabbing the broom should solve that [this also allows use the cloak in combination with using the hammer and key 3], but if there are no paging issues, then grabbing the Mirror instead of the Map might prove better), or combining 3 + 4. I actually don't think idea 1 would save time, but I'll leave it up here if someone wants to fiddle with the idea.

Randil

2011-04-30 11:14:52 am

I'm just a friendly TASer visiting

I have a very small route tweak: In the banquet hall (with the key under the rug), you want to use key5 last, since this key unlocks the sphinx room which you will enter right after unlocking all the doors.

I'll continue to look around and try to come up with more ideas.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Edit history:

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin: 2011-05-01 11:56:09 am

2011-05-01 11:51:04 am

Learning to Stream

This is just a quick recap from the TASVideos forums;

So what we know is...

0 Charges = Game Over
1 Action = 1 Charge
1 Charge Left = Use that action to light another Torch!
1 Torch = 60 Charges
5 Rooms = Charge Free Zones - Do whatcha gotta do to make it happen
7 Charges Left = Warning Music begins playing

Sphinx is Frame Specific with 6 different frames. The percentile of that frame coming forth are;

Broom 15.45138889
Skull 13.88888889
Map 18.75
Mirror 15.79861111
Bellow 15.625
Horseshoe 20.48611111

So we know the Horseshoe is truly lucky.. superstitious programmers no doubt. Map is also equally good in a pinch.

The Lightning outside is random as hell and can be the game killer with 6 bolts, but can be as light as 3.

So.... in the end, the main speedrun killers are the Sphinx and the Lightning Bolts. Everything else should be item menu management, optimum torch aquisition and clockwork precision.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-05-01 09:26:48 pm

2011-05-01 09:07:37 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Small change should save some movement and a page change:

...
Take Cloak
Use Cloak
Take Bottle 2
Take Torch = 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Learn Epor
Use Epor
Change to Page 1
Change to Page 2
Use Hammer
...

becomes

...
Take Cloak
Take Torch = 2
(Inventory goes to page 1)
Use Torch = 1
Use Blue Gem
Change to Spells
Learn Humana
Learn Epor
Use Epor
Take Bottle 2
(Inventory goes to page 2)
Use Cloak
Use Hammer
...

The new torch take is the one next to the cloak if that wasn't obvious. Going straight into the secret room should be a good gain as well.

Would switching the order we grab the sling and sword save anything?

Randil

2011-05-01 10:56:52 pm

I'm just a friendly TASer visiting

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Would switching the order we grab the sling and sword save anything?

Probably not, at least not in the TAS route (I investigated this some time ago). I can try it out today and see how it works with your route. And I'll also test the route change you posted today, and give you a result today.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-05-05 10:02:38 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-05-05 10:01:57 pm

2011-05-01 11:54:18 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I don't think there's a difference between the two routes in relation to using these items, so if it didn't save time when you tested, it probably won't save any now.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-05-05 10:04:49 pm

2011-05-05 10:02:43 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I was messing around with the sphinx again, and it seems there is more than one place he'll teleport you to:

Troll Bridge
Lab
Library
Coffin Room

I did this by using the map on him before he asks a question. Knowing this, would it be helpful to teleport to the coffin room and grab the scepter, then continue on to get the staff? I wonder if it's deterministic or as random has his question.

Another route change I've been trying to work in is taking a hit in using the scepter and ring early, which would allow more use of the minimap, and using the spells Humana, Illumina, and Motari in succession. This would of course mean getting the scepter and ring early, but it would avoid some inventory page turns. Another idea is to keep a torch on the first page so that any time we need to go from last to first we can just grab a torch.

I've been running through the route and I've not been getting very good times. It's only the first day and all my attempts have been riddled with mistakes, but the best so far is 15:05 from start to finish (TAS timing, so -15 seconds for TG). This would mean it is about equal with that very old TAS. I've been making it easy for timing by segmenting at the sphinx for now while I practice the route. I do have to say that TG time is pretty impressive now. I hope to be able to beat it, but sub-14 might be too much of a reach.

I was messing around with the sphinx again, and it seems there is more than one place he'll teleport you to:

Troll Bridge
Lab
Library
Coffin Room

I did this by using the map on him before he asks a question. Knowing this, would it be helpful to teleport to the coffin room and grab the scepter, then continue on to get the staff? I wonder if it's deterministic or as random has his question.

Another route change I've been trying to work in is taking a hit in using the scepter and ring early, which would allow more use of the minimap, and using the spells Humana, Illumina, and Motari in succession. This would of course mean getting the scepter and ring early, but it would avoid some inventory page turns. Another idea is to keep a torch on the first page so that any time we need to go from last to first we can just grab a torch.

I've been running through the route and I've not been getting very good times. It's only the first day and all my attempts have been riddled with mistakes, but the best so far is 15:05 from start to finish (TAS timing, so -15 seconds for TG). This would mean it is about equal with that very old TAS. I've been making it easy for timing by segmenting at the sphinx for now while I practice the route. I do have to say that TG time is pretty impressive now. I hope to be able to beat it, but sub-14 might be too much of a reach.

Randil

2011-05-05 10:48:44 pm

I'm just a friendly TASer visiting

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I was messing around with the sphinx again, and it seems there is more than one place he'll teleport you to:

Troll Bridge
Lab
Library
Coffin Room

I did this by using the map on him before he asks a question. Knowing this, would it be helpful to teleport to the coffin room and grab the scepter, then continue on to get the staff? I wonder if it's deterministic or as random has his question.

Another route change I've been trying to work in is taking a hit in using the scepter and ring early, which would allow more use of the minimap, and using the spells Humana, Illumina, and Motari in succession. This would of course mean getting the scepter and ring early, but it would avoid some inventory page turns. Another idea is to keep a torch on the first page so that any time we need to go from last to first we can just grab a torch.

I've been running through the route and I've not been getting very good times. It's only the first day and all my attempts have been riddled with mistakes, but the best so far is 15:05 from start to finish (TAS timing, so -15 seconds for TG). This would mean it is about equal with that very old TAS. I've been making it easy for timing by segmenting at the sphinx for now while I practice the route. I do have to say that TG time is pretty impressive now. I hope to be able to beat it, but sub-14 might be too much of a reach.

I can dig into these two ideas this weekend. And I think 15:05 is a pretty good time, so keep on pushing it!

[quote="ZenicReverie"]I was messing around with the sphinx again, and it seems there is more than one place he'll teleport you to:

Troll Bridge
Lab
Library
Coffin Room

I did this by using the map on him before he asks a question. Knowing this, would it be helpful to teleport to the coffin room and grab the scepter, then continue on to get the staff? I wonder if it's deterministic or as random has his question.

Another route change I've been trying to work in is taking a hit in using the scepter and ring early, which would allow more use of the minimap, and using the spells Humana, Illumina, and Motari in succession. This would of course mean getting the scepter and ring early, but it would avoid some inventory page turns. Another idea is to keep a torch on the first page so that any time we need to go from last to first we can just grab a torch.

I've been running through the route and I've not been getting very good times. It's only the first day and all my attempts have been riddled with mistakes, but the best so far is 15:05 from start to finish (TAS timing, so -15 seconds for TG). This would mean it is about equal with that very old TAS. I've been making it easy for timing by segmenting at the sphinx for now while I practice the route. I do have to say that TG time is pretty impressive now. I hope to be able to beat it, but sub-14 might be too much of a reach.[/quote]
I can dig into these two ideas this weekend. And I think 15:05 is a pretty good time, so keep on pushing it!