SDA-approved DOSbox?

Emptyeye

2011-12-09 04:42:02 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote from Lag.Com:

This is really great news and I'm behind it 100%.

I can't say it any better than this.

mikwuyma

2011-12-09 04:56:16 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I can't say this rule is 100% official, since it was just something I thought of at the top of my head rather than consulting with anyone else on staff, and I'm trying to see if there are any potential issues with it (like the CPU speed one), but I don't see any reason why the rule should be rejected at this point, especially since we do need a practical solution for DOS games.

CPU speed: This is a good point. We should either go with dosbox default (if it's the same for every computer), or the official rerelease's default.

bmn: I'm not really familiar enough with VirtualBox or VMWare to answer that question. I'm more focused on dosbox right now because it's a bigger issue.

Cosmo: Is Keen 4's speed dependent on cpu cycles? If not, then I don't see how this is a problem.

UraniumAnchor

2011-12-09 07:46:08 pm

Not a walrus

DOSBox is probably better than VMWare because it emulates everything, unless you flip on 'max' cycles and are playing a protected-mode game like Doom or Warcraft.

For games that might still be affected by CPU speed, but are too intensive to run on the default speed, but ALSO have some sort of speed step, I'd say setting it to the highest that's still limited is the way to go (Warcraft comes to mind, I think the 'fastest' speed runs as fast as it possibly can, but one step down is limited).

Kimo Xvirus

2011-12-09 10:20:38 pm

This can be useful http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Configuration:CPU
"Default is auto."
So by Default, DOSBox runs realmode games at 3000 cycles and protected mode games at max 100%

I think setting the cycles to 'max' is fine for any game if that doesn't affect its speed. But I'm not sure if it affects the loading, as in it loads faster than the fastest older PC that could run the game.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2011-12-09 10:30:53 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2011-12-09 10:28:48 pm

2011-12-09 10:27:16 pm

Not a walrus

Frankly any game that runs in protected mode is so old that a modern CPU is such a tiny difference in loading times it's not even worth considering. We've never worried about load times in the past, anyway.

For now, I'd say that if a game either has an inherent limiter, or has a limited mode, then crank the CPU as high as it can go. If the game speed is tied to the CPU speed, it's probably old enough that the default of 3000 cycles will do. The most advanced game I can think of with this problem is Jill of the Jungle.

ZenicReverie

2011-12-09 10:33:13 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

faster loading shouldn't matter since loading times are cut from PC games in the first place during timing.

CrypticJacknife

2011-12-09 10:34:05 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Ah CPU powered games, I remember Zork Nemesis with the CPU pumped to max, the pan speed is so fast it can actually crash it.

UraniumAnchor

2011-12-09 10:41:56 pm

Not a walrus

I'm sure there will have to be several exceptions made, but as a general rule I think it'll work.

Kimo Xvirus

Edit history:

Kimo Xvirus: 2011-12-09 10:55:51 pm

2011-12-09 10:55:25 pm

Yes, 'max' should be the way to go for limited games and 'the highest fixed number that's still limited' for other games affected by cycles.

For accuracy of emulation, the game should run at the original resolution, so these settings should probably be left alone:
fullresolution=original
windowresolution=original
output=surface

and about mixer blocksize

# blocksize: Mixer block size, larger blocks might help sound stuttering but sound will also be more lagged.
# Possible values: 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 512, 256.

DOSBox 0.74 has 1024 as the default value
DOSBox 0.73 and below had 2048 as the default value
I was using an older version of DOSBox so I changed it for my Wolf3D runs to 512, because I noticed minor sound delays in some games when it was 2048.
But I can't notice any difference between 1024 and 512 yet, so probably 1024 should be the way to go.

CosmoWright

Edit history:

CosmoWright: 2011-12-10 12:46:24 am

2011-12-10 12:05:14 am

Very cool, agreed with the last couple of posts. So, when can we make this official? I'm inspired to get a really good Keen4 run now

Quote from mikwuyma:

Cosmo: Is Keen 4's speed dependent on cpu cycles? If not, then I don't see how this is a problem.

It always runs at the same speed; the max cycles only helps with fixing weird stuttering and quicker loading times (like while going from the overworld into a level)

UraniumAnchor

2011-12-10 01:08:12 am

Not a walrus

Blocksize and output shouldn't make a noticable difference, if blocksize adds audio delay that can be fixed in post.

Breakdown

2011-12-10 01:30:30 pm

Haters gonna hate

Time to voice an unpopular opinion.

I'm not a huge fan of this idea. Even if it's an option that would allow an entire library of games that aren't really runnable for SDA otherwise, it's still unofficial emulation, something SDA has been adamantly against ever since this stopped being just a Quake site. It's a nice, neat, and tidy definition for the rules, and those waters get muddier than anything you'd see in Lagoon. No one wants to hear the slippery slope argument, but it applies here in a big way. If we change our stance to "no unofficial emulators except DOSBox" it's really only a matter of time before somebody comes along wanting to know why the can't use emulation for some other platform that's prohibitively difficult to record (Game Gear, Arcade). With DOSBox greenlighted already, our platform goes from "no unofficial emulation" to "not that emulator" which is a much more difficult position. If we cave on those then there's a good chance we'll see someone question why they can't use emulation for games/consoles that are exceedingly rare or expensive (Neo Geo, Little Sampson, Bubble Bobble 2) and our platform then has gone from "no unofficial emulators" to "recording those is easy, break the bank if you really want to do a run." You can see where I'm going with this I'm sure, and I really don't like the idea of it.

My view here might be different if the situation proposed was a bit more elegant, but this is already sounding like a headache to police. Different settings for different games, making sure future runs for games done under this system are done on the same settings and live recordings to ensure no emulator shenanigans, this is a lot of hoops for runners and verifiers to have to jump through to get a run on the site where we're confident in the "Verified: No Cheating!" stamp we'd be putting on it. I'm not saying DOSBox will never be the answer for SDA submissions, but nothing posted in this thread so far has convinced me it's there yet.

Don't consider this a ruling as I haven't conferred with the rest of the staff. Mike just asked me what I think, I told him, and now I'm telling all of you. This is just my 2 cents.

Time to voice an unpopular opinion.

I'm not a huge fan of this idea.  Even if it's an option that would allow an entire library of games that aren't really runnable for SDA otherwise, it's still unofficial emulation, something SDA has been adamantly against ever since this stopped being just a Quake site.  It's a nice, neat, and tidy definition for the rules, and those waters get muddier than anything you'd see in Lagoon.  No one wants to hear the slippery slope argument, but it applies here in a big way.  If we change our stance to "no unofficial emulators except DOSBox" it's really only a matter of time before somebody comes along wanting to know why the can't use emulation for some other platform that's prohibitively difficult to record (Game Gear, Arcade).  With DOSBox greenlighted already, our platform goes from "no unofficial emulation" to "not that emulator" which is a much more difficult position.  If we cave on those then there's a good chance we'll see someone question why they can't use emulation for games/consoles that are exceedingly rare or expensive (Neo Geo, Little Sampson, Bubble Bobble 2) and our platform then has gone from "no unofficial emulators" to "recording those is easy, break the bank if you really want to do a run."  You can see where I'm going with this I'm sure, and I really don't like the idea of it.

My view here might be different if the situation proposed was a bit more elegant, but this is already sounding like a headache to police.  Different settings for different games, making sure future runs for games done under this system are done on the same settings and live recordings to ensure no emulator shenanigans, this is a lot of hoops for runners and verifiers to have to jump through to get a run on the site where we're confident in the "Verified:  No Cheating!" stamp we'd be putting on it.  I'm not saying DOSBox will never be the answer for SDA submissions, but nothing posted in this thread so far has convinced me it's there yet.

Don't consider this a ruling as I haven't conferred with the rest of the staff.  Mike just asked me what I think, I told him, and now I'm telling all of you.  This is just my 2 cents.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-12-10 01:48:54 pm

2011-12-10 01:47:53 pm

While I have some sympathy for Breakdown's thoughts on this, I think that we can at a minimum allow DOSBox for official rereleases that use it without causing any problems. Those rereleases can very reasonably be considered 'official' emulation and so are in-line with SDA's existing rules - allowing them, it seems to me, would not be a step onto the slippery slope that Breakdown is concerned about.

ZenicReverie

2011-12-10 01:56:14 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Is it possible to run the DOSBox from official releases in order to load other games?

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-12-10 02:16:32 pm

2011-12-10 02:15:23 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Is it possible to run the DOSBox from official releases in order to load other games?

Uh, yes. It's just DOSBox, bundled with the game and usually with some kind of launcher that sets all the DOSBox settings up correctly for the game. The point is that the developers/publishers/copyright holders have seen fit to release a DOSBox version of the game, so for that particular game, it's in some meaningful sense an 'official emulator' - albeit not in quite the same sense that is normally meant in the SDA rules when 'official emulators' are referred to (i.e. ones released by the console manufacturers - I think?)

nate

2011-12-10 06:19:18 pm

a console game running in a console emulator on a console smells the same to me as a pc game running in a pc emulator on a pc. i'm really sympathetic to both sides and i think that allowing only official rereleases is a good compromise.

mikwuyma

2011-12-10 07:10:30 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yeah official rereleases is probably the best compromise, especially since all of the settings are preloaded.

Emptyeye

2011-12-10 10:05:06 pm

Talk to the Hand

I'm okay with the previous three posts. Honestly, I never could understand how DOSBox wasn't an "official" emulator in the case of those releases in the first place. Looking at it from that angle, the current position can easily be construed as "Official emulators are allowed...except for DOSBox, that doesn't count."

nate

2011-12-11 08:42:42 am

"too much potential for cheating" due to some special features of dosbox but that's a very weak argument. verification is less about establishing absolute truth and more about establishing good-faith. that's how it's always been. my position on this is probably influenced by tg's quixotic attempts at the former in the past (only vhs is allowed because it's "harder to cheat," etc).

Flip

2011-12-11 07:06:59 pm

1-Up!

Quote from nate:

a console game running in a console emulator on a console smells the same to me as a pc game running in a pc emulator on a pc. i'm really sympathetic to both sides and i think that allowing only official rereleases is a good compromise.

Quote from mikwuyma:

Yeah official rereleases is probably the best compromise, especially since all of the settings are preloaded.

Echoing this. Still not an official ruling but you see the way this is leaning.

CrypticJacknife

2011-12-12 06:45:42 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Sticking with only official rereleases to the best of my attention is going to severely limit things. But whatever actually makes these games runnable I guess. Yeah we need to look at this as an opportunity to broaden accessibility, as opposed to adding an extra 10 clauses to the rules list. Because of that, I'm still sticking with 'let it happen or ban it'. If it ends up you need to fulfill conditions a-z then it's just another reason to accept that DOS games are never going to be here.

stanski

Edit history:

stanski: 2011-12-14 04:46:50 pm

stanski: 2011-12-14 04:46:27 pm

2011-12-14 04:46:05 pm

wise fwom yo gwave

I agree with breakdown's post without entirely knowing how the "official releases on dosbox" even work and only being familiar with dosbox.

The solution of "recording yourself playing" is super easy to get around, it would be incredibly easy to assemble a somewhat decently done TAS and click some buttons if this was the only requirement.

Obviously people are going to cheat if they want to when you are dealing with a volunteer run organization on a site with a limited budget.

Exo

2011-12-15 03:53:03 am

Sandbagging

Quote from stanski:

I agree with breakdown's post without entirely knowing how the "official releases on dosbox" even work and only being familiar with dosbox.

The solution of "recording yourself playing" is super easy to get around, it would be incredibly easy to assemble a somewhat decently done TAS and click some buttons if this was the only requirement.

Obviously people are going to cheat if they want to when you are dealing with a volunteer run organization on a site with a limited budget.

If you go by that logic then oldschool console running would have been dead a long time ago (as well as any game that allows demo recording).
Its not that hard to assemble a micro-processor that forwards tas inputs to an actual console as shown by more than enough youtube videos.

UraniumAnchor

2011-12-15 04:13:30 am

Not a walrus

The vast majority of games do not sync properly, though.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-12-15 05:41:21 am

Exo: 2011-12-15 05:36:48 am

2011-12-15 05:35:50 am

Sandbagging

Yet no cam-footage is required for those that do synch (which are quite a few).
If you start requiring that for dosbox youre pretty much forced to require it for any other run thats not done on a new-gen console.