Rules and FAQ revision

2010-10-06 07:49:13 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Manocheese:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I think it's wordy in the revision adding "should be aware that." I don't see a benefit in adding that. I made a suggested revision: "Runs on any of these systems are acceptable, but viewer preference leans towards the original systems." Is there something wrong with that?

As I've explained twice, we do not know what "viewer preference" is.

Okay, what would you call it then? Because "many viewers would rather" sounds like "viewer preference" to me.

Why are we even talking about the viewers in that sentence? "Runs on any of these systems are acceptable, but original systems are best."

Paraxade

2010-10-07 02:50:51 am

I agree. I think it's a mistake to say anything about what viewers want to see or what viewer preference is. Why don't we just say SDA prefers you run on the original system if possible?

Zeupar

2010-10-07 05:09:49 am

Sonical!

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from Zeupar:

"Players may not use systems modified in any way".

Not true, I believe it's allowed to modify consoles to unlock regional games. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you read the whole thing yet? I worded it like that to avoid the interpretation that you suggested in your post. If you put it in context, it makes sense. The start of the modified paragraph would read like this: "- Hardware modification: Players may not use systems modified in any way (e.g. overclocking it to reduce lag). The only extra hardware allowed are mod chips and boot disks..."

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2010-10-07 06:04:23 am

VorpalEdge: 2010-10-07 05:44:10 am

VorpalEdge: 2010-10-07 05:37:41 am

VorpalEdge: 2010-10-07 05:36:53 am

VorpalEdge: 2010-10-07 05:35:56 am

2010-10-07 05:34:39 am

welcome to the machine

Quote from Paraxade:

I agree. I think it's a mistake to say anything about what viewers want to see or what viewer preference is. Why don't we just say SDA prefers you run on the original system if possible?

Because SDA is agnostic about this sort of thing. While I think running on the original platforms indirectly benefits SDA, as a matter of policy SDA would accept a run on the crazy broken GBA port of sonic 1 just as soon as it would a run on the genesis. Implying that SDA will prioritize one platform over another is misleading. The only reason the line is in rules at all is so runners can get more attention for their runs if they have a choice between platforms.

also, this entire argument is unnecessary. Is there really any question as to whether or not viewers prefer original systems? Of course they do. No, I don't have a paid study to support this, but I have a hell of a lot of anecdotes. Everything from SDA's retro culture to the people who ask cyghfer

[22:07] <cyghfer> i told rom this but at least like 5 people have asked if i've been streaming smrpg snes
[22:07] <cyghfer> i say yes and they're like oh COOL

to the problems, differences, and glitches a lot of ports and remakes have that impair watchability. Welcome to retro culture. As far as I'm concerned it's not an open question. Do you see this differently, manocheese, or are you just being pedantic? >_>

[quote="Paraxade"]I agree. I think it's a mistake to say anything about what viewers want to see or what viewer preference is. Why don't we just say SDA prefers you run on the original system if possible?[/quote]

Because SDA is agnostic about this sort of thing.  While I think running on the original platforms indirectly benefits SDA, as a matter of policy SDA would accept a run on the crazy broken GBA port of sonic 1 just as soon as it would a run on the genesis.  Implying that SDA will prioritize one platform over another is misleading.  The only reason the line is in rules at all is so runners can get more attention for their runs if they have a choice between platforms.

also, this entire argument is unnecessary.  Is there really any question as to whether or not viewers prefer original systems?  Of course they do.  No, I don't have a paid study to support this, but I have a hell of a lot of anecdotes.  Everything from SDA's retro culture to the people who ask cyghfer

[22:07]  <cyghfer> i told rom this but at least like 5 people have asked if i've been streaming smrpg snes
[22:07]  <cyghfer> i say yes and they're like oh COOL

to the problems, differences, and glitches a lot of ports and remakes have that impair watchability.  Welcome to retro culture.  As far as I'm concerned it's not an open question.  Do you see this differently, manocheese, or are you just being pedantic? >_>

Manocheese

2010-10-07 12:15:45 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from VorpalEdge:

Do you see this differently, manocheese, or are you just being pedantic?

Neither.

System Error

2010-10-13 04:06:34 am

Generic Text

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from Zeupar:

"Players may not use systems modified in any way".

Not true, I believe it's allowed to modify consoles to unlock regional games. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wasn't there a PSP run done with a modified console to allow recording video which was accepted, too?

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2010-10-15 02:23:20 am

2010-10-14 02:49:48 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

Quote:

I don't think there are any no-script HL runners, so it seems like SDA won't get any improved HL runs... too bad. And I guess DemonStrates 10min Portal run won't be accepted either?
btw; is hlspbunny mod still allowed then?

I'd say they better keep the grandfather rules.

Unfortunately SDA doesn't make it's policies based on what's best for the speedrunning community, or the popularity of it's site, or what the speedrunners want. It makes it's policies based purely on what a little guy named mike uyama wants the policy to be after the creator, Nolan, handed all control over to him. You can try as hard as you want to influence his decisions, he'll just censor the discussion if there's enough opposition against him as he's done repeated in the past. He'll admittedly make one bad decision after another. God forbid you try to make SDA and/or the speedrunning community better, because if it isn't what mike wants, it doesn't matter.

Kryal

2010-10-14 03:23:44 pm

from red to blue

Lol. The rule change just helps get rid of inconsistent grandfather clauses. You should also note that that little Mike Uyama can do a BIG sexy!

Manocheese

2010-10-14 03:24:06 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Too bad Mike's comments in the first post aren't there any more. I was going to check off how many of his predictions about your eventual post were true.

VorpalEdge

2010-10-14 03:27:42 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote from Manocheese:

Too bad Mike's comments in the first post aren't there any more. I was going to check off how many of his predictions about your eventual post were true.

>_>

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-10-14 04:04:30 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Unfortunately SDA doesn't make it's policies based on what's best for the speedrunning community, or the popularity of it's site, or what the speedrunners or speedrun watchers want. It makes it's policies based purely on what a little guy named mike uyama wants the policy to be after the creator, Nolan, handed all control over to him. You can try as hard as you want to influence his decisions, he'll just censor the discussion if there's enough opposition against him as he's done repeated in the past. He'll admittedly make one bad decision after another. God forbid you try to make SDA and/or the speedrunning community better, because if it isn't make mike wants, it doesn't matter.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-10-14 04:10:41 pm

2010-10-14 04:09:45 pm

I don't know whether I find Spider-Waffle entertaining or whether he pisses me off. Either way he's a colossal imbecile.

Manocheese

2010-10-14 05:17:06 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from VorpalEdge:

Quote from Manocheese:

Too bad Mike's comments in the first post aren't there any more. I was going to check off how many of his predictions about your eventual post were true.

>_>

I don't blame you or anything; all that was lost was some possible humor.

KhanFusion

2010-10-14 11:15:21 pm

Quote:

Many PC games allow players to use scripts or macros to automate certain actions.

Not only games but some PC mice have programmable buttons and support macros. Even the mouse wheel is a sort of script that allows you to spam whatever button you bind to it. This console approach to PC gaming just doesn't feel right.

Sir VG

2010-10-14 11:46:24 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from System Error:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from Zeupar:

"Players may not use systems modified in any way".

Not true, I believe it's allowed to modify consoles to unlock regional games. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wasn't there a PSP run done with a modified console to allow recording video which was accepted, too?

The original PSP had no video out, and the recording method fit under the "Game Gear" clause. Now that there's an easier (and better quality) method, it doesn't really matter anymore. But yeah, it was Satoryu's runs on the PSP. His newer runs use the PSP-3000 and its video out capability.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-10-15 02:39:39 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

Quote:

Not only games but some PC mice have programmable buttons and support macros. Even the mouse wheel is a sort of script that allows you to spam whatever button you bind to it. This console approach to PC gaming just doesn't feel right.

Not to mention easy to implement, undetectable macroing programs. These rules can never be enforced. They alienate SDA from the speedrunning communities of it's most popular PC games. Among many other reasons that have been repeated to death and opinions voiced by all of the top speedrunners for games with scripts and fans dropping in because they watched our scripted speedruns on youtube voicing how they enjoyed the runs more because of scripts. I don't think anyone who understands the relation between scripts and PC games from their own experience is in favor of abolishing all scripts.... All doesn't matter because mike, a purely console gamer who doesn't understand the relation between scripts and PC games, doesn't want them.

Is there a single person who speedruns games that allow scripts that's in favoring of banning all scripts?

[quote]Not only games but some PC mice have programmable buttons and support macros. Even the mouse wheel is a sort of script that allows you to spam whatever button you bind to it. This console approach to PC gaming just doesn't feel right.[/quote]
Not to mention easy to implement, undetectable macroing programs.  These rules can never be enforced.  They alienate SDA from the speedrunning communities of it's most popular PC games.  Among many other reasons that have been repeated to death and opinions voiced by all of the top speedrunners for games with scripts and fans dropping in because they watched our scripted speedruns on youtube voicing how they enjoyed the runs more because of scripts.  I don't think anyone who understands the relation between scripts and PC games from their own experience is in favor of abolishing all scripts....  All doesn't matter because mike, a purely console gamer who doesn't understand the relation between scripts and PC games, doesn't want them.

Is there a single person who speedruns games that allow scripts that's in favoring of banning all scripts?

Inexistence

2010-10-15 03:14:16 am

Yes, Inexistence is a word.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Is there a single person who speedruns games that allow scripts that's in favoring of banning all scripts?

I.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-10-15 04:11:52 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-10-15 03:56:50 am

2010-10-15 03:53:13 am

The thing I find most remarkable about Spider-Waffle's posts is his ability to assert something as definite fact on absolutely no grounds besides the fact that he wishes it, for the convenience of his current argument, to be true. I don't think it's that he actually lies; I think he just gets so carried away with whatever world-changing issue he's arguing about that petty issues like truth and falsehood that lesser men might concern themselves with become irrelevant to him.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

easy to implement, undetectable macroing programs. These rules can never be enforced.

SDA has a shitload of rules that can never be enforced. For many games - at a rough guess, I'd say more than half of all games ever made - you could easily segment a run during loading screens and nobody would ever know, and then you could submit the run as a single-segment run. That's an even bigger and easier potential method for cheating than people using autohotkey and claiming they didn't. As has been said before, SDA operates on trust.

Quote:

They alienate SDA from the speedrunning communities of it's most popular PC games.

This is at least reasonably close to true. We've already seen that they alienate SDA from the current speedrunning community of Half Life, and it seems quite likely that a lot of the people who have done Source engine game runs using turbo scripts in AutoHotkey will be unhappy with the change too when stuff they were previously using becomes impossible. Only Inexistence has voiced an opinion on this point so far though and he's in favour of the change.

Quote:

Among many other reasons that have been repeated to death and opinions voiced by all of the top speedrunners for games with scripts

What you mean here is 'many of the speedrunners who have done runs with scripts'. It's not 'all', as Inexistence isn't with you. The talk about 'top' speedrunners makes as little sense as the talk about being 'elite' back in the other thread; only a handful of people have ever even tried speedrunning the game so exactly what set of people are the objectors supposedly 'top' of, and why? Finally, you're not talking about speedrunners for games with scripts here, only those who have actually used them. There are several runs of scriptable games on the site in which the runner does not use scripts.

Quote:

and fans dropping in because they watched our scripted speedruns on youtube voicing how they enjoyed the runs more because of scripts.

Show me a single example of someone new to SDA actually coming along to the forum and posting to say that they enjoyed your run more because it had scripts in it, and I will eat my own epenis.

Quote:

I don't think anyone who understands the relation between scripts and PC games from their own experience is in favor of abolishing all scripts....

You have a serious lack of perspective here. What you really mean when you say 'the relation between scripts and PC games' is 'the way that runners have chosen to use scripts in the past'. dex proved that, at least for some games, there is serious potential for total automation by scripting turning out to be faster than the best human play. Even in games where desyncing happens faster and there is far less capacity to automate long sections of the game, it seems likely that there is scope for saving time by increasing the complexity of scripting used; just automating the first couple of bunny hops of each segment with scripts that perform fractionally better than a human could save seconds over the course of a run. You have no idea of the broader picture of what's possible, even for Half Life, the game you run, because you've refused to even experiment with more complex scripting for reasons of your own and have basically chosen to believe that it is impossible to usefully use any scripts that weren't in your old run without even thinking about the possibilities or testing anything.

Quote:

All doesn't matter because mike, a purely console gamer who doesn't understand the relation between scripts and PC games, doesn't want them.

He's played at least some PC games, he's just never done any PC speedruns. I don't see the relevance of that to anything anyway since the vast majority of PC gamers / PC runners have also never used scripts. More to the point, they're not banned because he personally doesn't want them, they're banned because most SDA people who have posted on the issue have said, in fairly strong terms, that they didn't want them. Or have you conveniently forgotten the 2009 rules reworking thread where you spend almost 10 pages arguing on this exact issue with barely a whisper of support for your side from anyone else?

In conclusion:
Most people disagree with you and you'll acheive nothing by arguing here. But if you must argue, do so in a civilised way. Stop insulting people without provocation simply because you disagree with them. Stop saying things that you know aren't true. Stop asserting things that you believe to be true, but have no evidence for, as incontrovertible fact; preferably explain why you feel they are likely to be true, but at the very least use language that indicates that what you are expressing is an opinion. Stop laughably referring yourself as an 'elite' or 'top' runner as a way of trying to close other people out of the discussion and try to make out that they do not have the knowledge or experience of the issue required to understand the debate or contribute meaningfully to it when this is plainly not true. And then maybe you'll get thoughtful and courteous responses from people like me instead of being told what a total fucktard you are.

The thing I find most remarkable about Spider-Waffle's posts is his ability to assert something as definite fact on absolutely no grounds besides the fact that he wishes it, for the convenience of his current argument, to be true. I don't think it's that he actually lies; I think he just gets so carried away with whatever world-changing issue he's arguing about that petty issues like truth and falsehood that lesser men might concern themselves with become irrelevant to him.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]easy to implement, undetectable macroing programs.  These rules can never be enforced.[/quote]

SDA has a shitload of rules that can never be enforced. For many games - at a rough guess, I'd say more than half of all games ever made - you could easily segment a run during loading screens and nobody would ever know, and then you could submit the run as a single-segment run. That's an even bigger and easier potential method for cheating than people using autohotkey and claiming they didn't. As has been said before, SDA operates on trust.

[quote]They alienate SDA from the speedrunning communities of it's most popular PC games.[/quote]

This is at least reasonably close to true. We've already seen that they alienate SDA from the current speedrunning community of Half Life, and it seems quite likely that a lot of the people who have done Source engine game runs using turbo scripts in AutoHotkey will be unhappy with the change too when stuff they were previously using becomes impossible. Only Inexistence has voiced an opinion on this point so far though and he's in favour of the change.

[quote]Among many other reasons that have been repeated to death and opinions voiced by all of the top speedrunners for games with scripts[/quote]

What you mean here is 'many of the speedrunners who have done [i]runs[/i] with scripts'. It's not 'all', as Inexistence isn't with you. The talk about 'top' speedrunners makes as little sense as the talk about being 'elite' back in the other thread; only a handful of people have ever even tried speedrunning the game so exactly what set of people are the objectors supposedly 'top' of, and why? Finally, you're not talking about speedrunners for [i]games[/i] with scripts here, only those who have actually used them. There are several runs of scriptable games on the site in which the runner does not use scripts.

[quote]and fans dropping in because they watched our scripted speedruns on youtube [b]voicing how they enjoyed the runs more because of scripts.[/b][/quote]

Show me a single example of someone new to SDA actually coming along to the forum and posting to say that they enjoyed your run more [i]because[/i] it had scripts in it, and I will eat my own epenis.

[quote]I don't think anyone who understands the relation between scripts and PC games from their own experience is in favor of abolishing all scripts....[/quote]

You have a serious lack of perspective here. What you really mean when you say 'the relation between scripts and PC games' is 'the way that runners have chosen to use scripts in the past'. dex proved that, at least for some games, there is serious potential for total automation by scripting turning out to be faster than the best human play. Even in games where desyncing happens faster and there is far less capacity to automate long sections of the game, it seems likely that there is scope for saving time by increasing the complexity of scripting used; just automating the first couple of bunny hops of each segment with scripts that perform fractionally better than a human could save seconds over the course of a run. You have no idea of the broader picture of what's possible, even for Half Life, the game [i]you[/i] run, because you've refused to even experiment with more complex scripting for reasons of your own and have basically chosen to believe that it is impossible to usefully use any scripts that weren't in your old run without even thinking about the possibilities or testing anything.

[quote]All doesn't matter because mike, a purely console gamer who doesn't understand the relation between scripts and PC games, doesn't want them.[/quote]

He's played at least some PC games, he's just never done any PC speedruns. I don't see the relevance of that to anything anyway since the vast majority of PC gamers / PC runners have also never used scripts. More to the point, they're not banned because he personally doesn't want them, they're banned because most SDA people who have posted on the issue have said, in fairly strong terms, that they didn't want them. Or have you conveniently forgotten the 2009 rules reworking thread where you spend almost 10 pages arguing on this exact issue with barely a whisper of support for your side from anyone else?

In conclusion:
Most people disagree with you and you'll acheive nothing by arguing here. But if you must argue, do so in a civilised way. Stop insulting people without provocation simply because you disagree with them. Stop saying things that you know aren't true. Stop asserting things that you believe to be true, but have no evidence for, as incontrovertible fact; preferably explain why you feel they are likely to be true, but at the very least use language that indicates that what you are expressing is an opinion. Stop laughably referring yourself as an 'elite' or 'top' runner as a way of trying to close other people out of the discussion and try to make out that they do not have the knowledge or experience of the issue required to understand the debate or contribute meaningfully to it when this is plainly not true. And then maybe you'll get thoughtful and courteous responses from people like me instead of being told what a total fucktard you are.

Lag.Com

2010-10-15 04:38:23 am

sda loyalist

As a long time Quake runner, which is a very scriptable game (as dex has demonstrated), I hate scripts, because they lessen the effect of personal skill from the outcome of the speedrun.

That's 2.

djcj

2010-10-15 04:49:11 am

So runs that were using scripts (Portal, HL, etc.) will be kept on SDA but can't be improved using scripts anymore because the grandfather clause was removed?
And a much more important question to me: is binding "+jump" to the mousewheel to be able to ABH/bunnyhop in Portal/HL2 Episode Two considered a script or not? Cause to me that seems like a normal bind and not a script or macro.

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2010-10-15 04:53:18 am

2010-10-15 04:53:04 am

Exoray

Quote from djcj:

And a much more important question to me: is binding "+jump" to the mousewheel to be able to ABH/bunnyhop in Portal/HL2 Episode Two considered a script or not? Cause to me that seems like a normal bind and not a script or macro.

Can't see why this would be considered a script, it is just a button assignment of jump that can even be done through the controls interface.

djcj

2010-10-15 05:17:30 am

I'm just curious, because if you use this method you can ABH and AFH in Portal without AHK. Only wallclimbing might be impossible without scripts and macros.

d_arnold07

Edit history:

d_arnold07: 2010-10-15 07:00:31 am

2010-10-15 06:45:02 am

are you going to put this in the rules: 'all IL's must be completed on the same patch'.
Or are you going to assume that everyone will use v1.0 'cause that version is fastest for running'?

edit: also can you change the patch of the game part way through the speedrun?

I'm just clearing up these issues so new speedrunners will know what they can/can not do (with patches).

ExplodingCabbage

2010-10-15 07:03:13 am

Quote from d_arnold07:

are you going to put this in the rules: 'all IL's must be completed on the same patch'.

Issues like this belong in the detailed list of specific rules that I will produce eventually, not in the main rules document.

mikwuyma

2010-10-15 07:43:34 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

little guy named mike uyama

6' 0" 230 lbs