1-Up!
Game Page: Doesn't exist yet
This is a run on the PC version
Verifier Responses
Decision: Accept
Reason: This run has mistakes, but it's a good first submission.
Congratulations to 'Butt3rs'!
This is a run on the PC version
Verifier Responses
Quote:
Some notes on the Rank 30 route: Between Oleander, Sasha, and the Brain Tumbler, there's over 100 points worth of figments that could've been easily collected without losing much time. There may even be 200 available including some of the close-by ones in early Lungfishopolis (many range from 5-8 points apiece). If you grabbed a few extra arrowheads in the second Brain Tumbler visit, you could skip the entire Kid's Cabins doodad farming segment. There's room to play with the route here, you could also grab just the challenge marker in segment 2 or skip doing a full circuit of the bottom of the spiky thorn tower on the third Brain Tumbler visit.
It's hard to know exactly how much time could be saved because of just how many item pickup variations there are, it could be anywhere from 20 seconds to a full minute or more. I know Inexistence was just gunning it without doing many card pickups, relying on a much more figment-heavy run, but given the way this run balances campground pickups with the dowsing rod farming, I'd imagine the optimal route is a fine-tuned combination of these two approaches. Negating the need for the Kids' Cabins collecting segment seems the most obvious time-saver, but there may be another 9 cards somewhere that could be replaced with figments. This is still a really solid route, especially for a run that was started before a number of newer tricks were found.
Segment 3 - A few seconds to be gained by the Inexistence trick which you noted in the comments.
Segment 4 - I tested the gun section myself just to see if I could get through with only one hit. Man, that's aggravating.
Segment 5 - Shame there's no way to reliably grab one of those 20-point figments on the rolling spike platforms. Nice work keeping the rail-grinding speed through the jump, here and throughout the run, it always looks really cool.
Segment 7 - A few of those moving figments would be really easy to grab here.
Segment 8 - Same here, one or two 9-point figments might be worth the extra second or two. Great work with the valves and the boss.
Segment 9 - And again here, since you're already arrowhead farming, there's fair number of 9-point figments that are really close by.
Segment 11 - As noted in the comments, you're missing a big early skip with the palm bomb, but overall execution is well done.
Segment 13 - A few mistakes in Milla's mind, but nothing too serious considering how well the collecting portion went.
Segment 17 - Good fight, barring any new discoveries about its AI, it seems like only a few seconds could be gained from an absolute perfect segment.
Segment 18 - Well done on what must be an unbearable segment to run by now. Playing with the dowsing rod made for a fun moment. With a less card-heavy route, some of the arrowhead farming might be done here.
Segment 19 - Had no idea about the water speed glitch. Very nice.
Segment 23 - Nice Den Mother fight. I used to think you had to TK the exploding boxes at her. That was really annoying.
I lost track of the segments after this point since the comments weren't finished yet. some other notes:
-Very nice catwalks and phantom fight. All of Gloria's mind was well done, in fact.
-Did opening the vault on the carpenter's roof serve a purpose?
-No complaints in Waterloo. Some Very nice accelerated levitation ball jumps.
-Why so many segments during the wrestler fights in Black Velvetopia? I guess a few of the bull dodges and the guitar skip require tight timing? Or is it due to the game crashing?
-Edgar skip: AWESOME. Good boss fight too.
-Nice work dodging the rats during the tower climb, especially without invisibility.
-I like how the game is still trying to catch up with all your checklist items while you're fighting the brain tank.
-Slide skip: AWESOME. Water climb skip: AWESOME. The boss fights were all really well-handled too.
-A/V quality is great, couldn't find any segment inconsistencies.
Verdict: Accept. Well done, it's great to finally see a submitted run of this game.
It's hard to know exactly how much time could be saved because of just how many item pickup variations there are, it could be anywhere from 20 seconds to a full minute or more. I know Inexistence was just gunning it without doing many card pickups, relying on a much more figment-heavy run, but given the way this run balances campground pickups with the dowsing rod farming, I'd imagine the optimal route is a fine-tuned combination of these two approaches. Negating the need for the Kids' Cabins collecting segment seems the most obvious time-saver, but there may be another 9 cards somewhere that could be replaced with figments. This is still a really solid route, especially for a run that was started before a number of newer tricks were found.
Segment 3 - A few seconds to be gained by the Inexistence trick which you noted in the comments.
Segment 4 - I tested the gun section myself just to see if I could get through with only one hit. Man, that's aggravating.
Segment 5 - Shame there's no way to reliably grab one of those 20-point figments on the rolling spike platforms. Nice work keeping the rail-grinding speed through the jump, here and throughout the run, it always looks really cool.
Segment 7 - A few of those moving figments would be really easy to grab here.
Segment 8 - Same here, one or two 9-point figments might be worth the extra second or two. Great work with the valves and the boss.
Segment 9 - And again here, since you're already arrowhead farming, there's fair number of 9-point figments that are really close by.
Segment 11 - As noted in the comments, you're missing a big early skip with the palm bomb, but overall execution is well done.
Segment 13 - A few mistakes in Milla's mind, but nothing too serious considering how well the collecting portion went.
Segment 17 - Good fight, barring any new discoveries about its AI, it seems like only a few seconds could be gained from an absolute perfect segment.
Segment 18 - Well done on what must be an unbearable segment to run by now. Playing with the dowsing rod made for a fun moment. With a less card-heavy route, some of the arrowhead farming might be done here.
Segment 19 - Had no idea about the water speed glitch. Very nice.
Segment 23 - Nice Den Mother fight. I used to think you had to TK the exploding boxes at her. That was really annoying.
I lost track of the segments after this point since the comments weren't finished yet. some other notes:
-Very nice catwalks and phantom fight. All of Gloria's mind was well done, in fact.
-Did opening the vault on the carpenter's roof serve a purpose?
-No complaints in Waterloo. Some Very nice accelerated levitation ball jumps.
-Why so many segments during the wrestler fights in Black Velvetopia? I guess a few of the bull dodges and the guitar skip require tight timing? Or is it due to the game crashing?
-Edgar skip: AWESOME. Good boss fight too.
-Nice work dodging the rats during the tower climb, especially without invisibility.
-I like how the game is still trying to catch up with all your checklist items while you're fighting the brain tank.
-Slide skip: AWESOME. Water climb skip: AWESOME. The boss fights were all really well-handled too.
-A/V quality is great, couldn't find any segment inconsistencies.
Verdict: Accept. Well done, it's great to finally see a submitted run of this game.
Quote:
I find it hard to give my verdict about this run, and here are the reasons why:
On the positive side, I feel like there has been a lot of research done by the runner about shortcuts and sequence breaks.
-The water skip in the Meat circus is a great find
-The 4th card skip in Edgar`s Mind was pretty impressive as well
-A lot of other skips have been found in almost every part of the run and deserves credits
-Quality of the video and audio is good
-There was no major mistakes in the run
On the bad side,
-It seems like a lot of small and easy improvements could have been made at some points.
-The optimization of the route of the collection segments (figments, cards and arrowheads) is far from perfect
-There are some new neat tricks that haven't been seen in the run
Though, I believe that the run was started by the runner, which pushed more people to play the game and find tricks. The runner had started the run when most of the new tricks were found.
Since every run has to start somewhere and needs a first iteration, this run meets the expectation of a first try and is still quite impressive to watch due to the massive amount of tricks found even in this run. I think it still deserves to be watched.
So to conclude, I would say that the run should be Accepted, but keep in mind that this is a close call because of the other bad reasons I mentioned.
On the positive side, I feel like there has been a lot of research done by the runner about shortcuts and sequence breaks.
-The water skip in the Meat circus is a great find
-The 4th card skip in Edgar`s Mind was pretty impressive as well
-A lot of other skips have been found in almost every part of the run and deserves credits
-Quality of the video and audio is good
-There was no major mistakes in the run
On the bad side,
-It seems like a lot of small and easy improvements could have been made at some points.
-The optimization of the route of the collection segments (figments, cards and arrowheads) is far from perfect
-There are some new neat tricks that haven't been seen in the run
Though, I believe that the run was started by the runner, which pushed more people to play the game and find tricks. The runner had started the run when most of the new tricks were found.
Since every run has to start somewhere and needs a first iteration, this run meets the expectation of a first try and is still quite impressive to watch due to the massive amount of tricks found even in this run. I think it still deserves to be watched.
So to conclude, I would say that the run should be Accepted, but keep in mind that this is a close call because of the other bad reasons I mentioned.
Quote:
Right, I've had a bit of a respite, so I've managed to get a good look at the run. I won't be posting my usually detailed commentary, but make more general observations instead.
A/V quality is good throughout, well above the minimum standards.
No obvious or overt cheating as far as I can tell. All the segments seemed consistent with one another, although I wasn't counting all the collection items.
Concerning the route: I can't really comment too much on it, as I haven't participated in planning to speed run the game. I realize that there's so much choice available between the cards and figments and arrowheads that I almost automatically assume that there's bound to be improvements to this route (or even just better routes overall), which is a part of the fun. And the run itself seems to show that the runner has done a good deal of planning.
But in this case, I'm concerned by the above estimate that up to a full minute might be saved by taking a different route for collection, that's a massive time saver. How sure are you that savings that large could be achieved? I mean, in the run itself, there are <quite> a few places where it's obvious that the runner could have made quick detours to collect figments, so I don't doubt that there are a lot of easy, quick figments around that could easily go up to 100. If you're sure that there's that much time to be saved, then that's a factor that seriously needs to be taken into consideration in saying Yay or Nay... so get back to me as soon as you can.
Concerning the execution of the run, it's pretty good. The runner is reasonably consistent about jumping or levitating to save time throughout, vital for getting a good time, although there are <few> places where he fails to do this. There are plenty of tricky jumps that the runner executes very well and there are very few overt or obvious mistakes. The overall execution is very solid.
Boss fights are very good, for the most part, quick and cleanly done.
The skips in this run are really, really good, both to see and by the time they save. The water skip in the meat circus is a delight, Milla's stage has plenty of small, quick skips, Edgar's level is simply mindbogglingly fast thanks to the skips and tricks used, Gloria's mind has some really good jumping and shortcuts.
However, as stated above, since this run started, tricks that have been found that save a little time. However, I think it would be somewhat unfair to exclude the run based on the missed tricks that I've seen so far, as there aren't that many of them yet.
The lungfish segment is the only one where I think the runner wasted a bit of an opportunity; given that the speed is fixed and it's not a hard segment, this would have been a good time to goof off a little bit, to make things a little less dull.
So, overall, it s a run with plenty of great skips and tricks and is well executed for the most part. However, the potential for route optimization and the new tricks are significant issues. As such, for now I'm giving it a Accept, but I'm awaiting to see how much time that can be saved from better route planning.
Also, in response to the question about the vault in the Waterloo world: if I recall correctly, you need to defeat the censor and open the vault to get peasant to come out (since he's complaining of the noise upstairs as result of both are moving around).
A/V quality is good throughout, well above the minimum standards.
No obvious or overt cheating as far as I can tell. All the segments seemed consistent with one another, although I wasn't counting all the collection items.
Concerning the route: I can't really comment too much on it, as I haven't participated in planning to speed run the game. I realize that there's so much choice available between the cards and figments and arrowheads that I almost automatically assume that there's bound to be improvements to this route (or even just better routes overall), which is a part of the fun. And the run itself seems to show that the runner has done a good deal of planning.
But in this case, I'm concerned by the above estimate that up to a full minute might be saved by taking a different route for collection, that's a massive time saver. How sure are you that savings that large could be achieved? I mean, in the run itself, there are <quite> a few places where it's obvious that the runner could have made quick detours to collect figments, so I don't doubt that there are a lot of easy, quick figments around that could easily go up to 100. If you're sure that there's that much time to be saved, then that's a factor that seriously needs to be taken into consideration in saying Yay or Nay... so get back to me as soon as you can.
Concerning the execution of the run, it's pretty good. The runner is reasonably consistent about jumping or levitating to save time throughout, vital for getting a good time, although there are <few> places where he fails to do this. There are plenty of tricky jumps that the runner executes very well and there are very few overt or obvious mistakes. The overall execution is very solid.
Boss fights are very good, for the most part, quick and cleanly done.
The skips in this run are really, really good, both to see and by the time they save. The water skip in the meat circus is a delight, Milla's stage has plenty of small, quick skips, Edgar's level is simply mindbogglingly fast thanks to the skips and tricks used, Gloria's mind has some really good jumping and shortcuts.
However, as stated above, since this run started, tricks that have been found that save a little time. However, I think it would be somewhat unfair to exclude the run based on the missed tricks that I've seen so far, as there aren't that many of them yet.
The lungfish segment is the only one where I think the runner wasted a bit of an opportunity; given that the speed is fixed and it's not a hard segment, this would have been a good time to goof off a little bit, to make things a little less dull.
So, overall, it s a run with plenty of great skips and tricks and is well executed for the most part. However, the potential for route optimization and the new tricks are significant issues. As such, for now I'm giving it a Accept, but I'm awaiting to see how much time that can be saved from better route planning.
Also, in response to the question about the vault in the Waterloo world: if I recall correctly, you need to defeat the censor and open the vault to get peasant to come out (since he's complaining of the noise upstairs as result of both are moving around).
Quote:
This is a really difficult one for me. I've chatted to Inexistence about this run a bit, because it's been a very long time since I played this game and I don't currently have the time or disc required to play through it all again and scrupulously check stuff. I will make sure to do so at some point in the future so I can appreciate this run and the tricks that have been found a bit better, but for now I'm mostly going on what I can glean from Inexistence.
Pros:
* Some nice tricks found by the runner that will be of great use to future runners. The move speed increase in Lungfishopolis, the early access to the boss fight in Black Velvetopia and the... thing that he does during the rising water section (no comments from the runner on that part yet so I simply don't know what the hell happens there or why) are notable examples.
* Execution looks decent to me
Cons:
* Apparently if you quit immediately after creating your profile, then load the starting save, you skip the tutorial and are immediately placed in the Kids' Cabins. 34 seconds lost by not doing this right at the start of the run, which kinda sucks.
* Inexistence made the case to me that not only is levelling via figments faster than via cards, but that it's obviously faster, since the number of figments you need to get to level up is only a small multiple of the number of cards you need, whereas the time it takes to get each card is a LARGE multiple of the time it takes to get each figment (which is barely anything). Inexistence linked me to this video to show arrowhead collection being done hugely faster if you aren't going for cards at the same time. I certainly don't think the earlier verifier's estimate of a minute lost on card collection is an underestimate.
* There's a whole bunch of tricks that have been found since this run was done; I haven't been following closely but I'd guess we're talking about well over a minute of new timesavers, maybe substantially more.
The thing that really made my mind up about what verdict to settle on was a comparison of this run against Inexistence's unfinished run on YouTube. It's split into a bunch of parts but you can find them all on his channel and he has a playlist containing most of it. To take one comparison point, at the end of Sasha's mind, butt3rs is at 11:20 with rank 6, 20 figments and 17 cards, while Inex is at 9:53 with rank 9, 94 figments and 6 cards. So he's ahead on everything.
And Inexistence's run on YouTube isn't even optimal; there are many new timesavers found since then, and Inexistence also missed the 34 second tutorial skip. So we're talking about well over 2 minutes of possible improvement in the first 11 minutes of the run. By the start of Boyd's mind, butt3rs is over 5 minutes behind. I don't know enough about the game to know quite where the time loss is happening - whether it's the choice of card collection over figments, some other route planning mistakes, or execution - but it's clear that the time lost is big.
So, while I'm somewhat cautious because I really don't have anywhere near the detailed knowledge of the game I'd normally like to have before reaching a verdict, I feel fairly confident that this should be rejected.
I feel bad about it, though, in a way that I haven't felt bad about any of my reject votes in the past. In making this run butt3rs found and shared a bunch of tricks for this game that others didn't know about, and since then he's done more work on trick-finding to contribute to future runs of the game. He seems to be a good guy. Most of this run was apparently done a couple of years ago, and nobody had yet discussed the game on SDA at all (although the runner was a member here and could've posted a thread and sought help if he wanted to), so I only hold him partly culpable for not seeking help to avoid making some of his mistakes. And this is long, hard run that'd be a massive pain to redo. So yeah, I really don't want to reject this.
But the apparent time loss (a whole load of minutes) is so big that I just don't think I can justify voting accept on this.
I'm really sorry, butt3rs, and I really hope that your continuing work on this game indicates you still care enough to do a new run. I would love to see a rerun of this with all the stuff that you and others have found.
By the way, my most recent convo with Inexistence (where we decided to reject) is copied below if any of you guys happen to want to read it. It basically says what I've already said above.
Pros:
* Some nice tricks found by the runner that will be of great use to future runners. The move speed increase in Lungfishopolis, the early access to the boss fight in Black Velvetopia and the... thing that he does during the rising water section (no comments from the runner on that part yet so I simply don't know what the hell happens there or why) are notable examples.
* Execution looks decent to me
Cons:
* Apparently if you quit immediately after creating your profile, then load the starting save, you skip the tutorial and are immediately placed in the Kids' Cabins. 34 seconds lost by not doing this right at the start of the run, which kinda sucks.
* Inexistence made the case to me that not only is levelling via figments faster than via cards, but that it's obviously faster, since the number of figments you need to get to level up is only a small multiple of the number of cards you need, whereas the time it takes to get each card is a LARGE multiple of the time it takes to get each figment (which is barely anything). Inexistence linked me to this video to show arrowhead collection being done hugely faster if you aren't going for cards at the same time. I certainly don't think the earlier verifier's estimate of a minute lost on card collection is an underestimate.
* There's a whole bunch of tricks that have been found since this run was done; I haven't been following closely but I'd guess we're talking about well over a minute of new timesavers, maybe substantially more.
The thing that really made my mind up about what verdict to settle on was a comparison of this run against Inexistence's unfinished run on YouTube. It's split into a bunch of parts but you can find them all on his channel and he has a playlist containing most of it. To take one comparison point, at the end of Sasha's mind, butt3rs is at 11:20 with rank 6, 20 figments and 17 cards, while Inex is at 9:53 with rank 9, 94 figments and 6 cards. So he's ahead on everything.
And Inexistence's run on YouTube isn't even optimal; there are many new timesavers found since then, and Inexistence also missed the 34 second tutorial skip. So we're talking about well over 2 minutes of possible improvement in the first 11 minutes of the run. By the start of Boyd's mind, butt3rs is over 5 minutes behind. I don't know enough about the game to know quite where the time loss is happening - whether it's the choice of card collection over figments, some other route planning mistakes, or execution - but it's clear that the time lost is big.
So, while I'm somewhat cautious because I really don't have anywhere near the detailed knowledge of the game I'd normally like to have before reaching a verdict, I feel fairly confident that this should be rejected.
I feel bad about it, though, in a way that I haven't felt bad about any of my reject votes in the past. In making this run butt3rs found and shared a bunch of tricks for this game that others didn't know about, and since then he's done more work on trick-finding to contribute to future runs of the game. He seems to be a good guy. Most of this run was apparently done a couple of years ago, and nobody had yet discussed the game on SDA at all (although the runner was a member here and could've posted a thread and sought help if he wanted to), so I only hold him partly culpable for not seeking help to avoid making some of his mistakes. And this is long, hard run that'd be a massive pain to redo. So yeah, I really don't want to reject this.
But the apparent time loss (a whole load of minutes) is so big that I just don't think I can justify voting accept on this.
By the way, my most recent convo with Inexistence (where we decided to reject) is copied below if any of you guys happen to want to read it. It basically says what I've already said above.
*snip*
ExplodingCabbage: anyway you put any more thought into psychonauts?
ExplodingCabbage: about the card vs figments issue... i was gonna have a look at it but people had already pointed out in the verification thread that a lot of the card collection is done at the same time as arrowhead collection
ExplodingCabbage: so i wouldn't really be able to tell how much time getting the cards actually costs
Inexistencensence: Arrowhead collection is pointless
ExplodingCabbage: why?
Inexistencensence: You need to collect 50 arrowheads as quickly as you can. You get those 50, and that's all that matters.
Inexistencensence: You use the 50 to buy something... I've forgotten what. It's a struggle to get the 50, but it's reasonably easily done
Inexistencensence: At that point, you only need arrowheads for the cobweb duster, which costs about 400. You can get these arrowhead while being chased by Linda. You lose no time at all, and there are more than enough
ExplodingCabbage: hmm
ExplodingCabbage: do you reckon you'll write a verification response for this? just trying to figure out whether to whip out a resopnse myself now or wait for you
Inexistencensence: I don't think I will do, sorry :/. I don't really have the motivation to get into a whole analysation mode for it :<
ExplodingCabbage: fair enough
Inexistencensence: I'm very lazy D:
ExplodingCabbage: what's your gut feeling on whether to accept or reject?
Inexistencensence: I really can't decide. I mean, the execution is fine and all. Not perfect, but fair enough. It misses out a bunch of skips, but it was created before mine where I found a lot and so did bloodisblue. The route, I don't agree with. I feel like it wasted a lot of time. I want to accept it, because it's a game that deserves a run badly, and it's not a bad run, but I don't know if I can say to accept.
ExplodingCabbage: btw are you sure you can get 800 arrowheads while being chased by linda?
Inexistencensence: Absolutely
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: that makes it a lot easier for me to estimate how much time is lost card collecting
Inexistencensence:
Inexistencensence: In my run I collect around 1300
Inexistencensence: Just from being chased by Linda
ExplodingCabbage: so how do you get the 50 arrowheads normally?
ExplodingCabbage: / correctly, i mean
ExplodingCabbage: what's the fastest way
Inexistencensence:
Inexistencensence: Covers most of them.
ExplodingCabbage: alright
Inexistencensence: Then there's just a couple here and there. It took ages to luck manipulate a load from Raz's mind
Inexistencensence: It was the fastest way I could fine
Inexistencensence: *find
*snip*
Inexistencensence: So, you seen the videos and arrowhead route?
ExplodingCabbage: yeah
ExplodingCabbage: one question:
ExplodingCabbage: on entering sasha's shooting gallery, you're ahead on rank, ahead on arrowheads, and nearly 2 minutes ahead on time
ExplodingCabbage: is this a fair comparison, or have you done tasks in a different order or something?
Inexistencensence: That's him taking time collecting cards
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: so it really just is that his run is much slower?
Inexistencensence: I'm pretty sure I fall behind in Sasha's, because I collect a lot of figments (Figments are worth a lot in Sasha's)
ExplodingCabbage: righty
ExplodingCabbage: but you're already ahead on rank entering sasha's, lol
Inexistencensence: well rank isn't much of an indicator, unless you're taking into account the amount of cards he already has
ExplodingCabbage: oooh yeah cards don't instantly rank you up, do they?
ExplodingCabbage: i forgot about that
Inexistencensence: Nope
ExplodingCabbage: so long since i've played
ExplodingCabbage: so he's rank 5 with 17 cards and 70 figments
Inexistencensence: So pretty much rank 7
ExplodingCabbage: you're rank 6 with 57 figments and 6 cards
Inexistencensence: So I'm a bit lower
ExplodingCabbage: yeah
ExplodingCabbage: let me look at the end of sasha's mind if you say there's lots of figment collecting there
ExplodingCabbage: you're at 9:53
ExplodingCabbage: rank 9, 94 figments, 6 cards
Inexistencensence: 9:53, Rank 10
ExplodingCabbage: he's at 11:20
ExplodingCabbage: rank 6
ExplodingCabbage: 20 figments
ExplodingCabbage: and 17 cards
Inexistencensence: So in every way, I'm dominating him
ExplodingCabbage: yes
Inexistencensence: I really need to just get the determination to finish my run don't I? ¬_¬
ExplodingCabbage: and that's your old run you're gonna restart, or...?
Inexistencensence: I was planning on it, but it isn't gonna happen
ExplodingCabbage: so it doesn't feature the 34 second tutorial skip?
ExplodingCabbage: or the new tricks in oleander's mind?
Inexistencensence: My old run doesn't include the tutorial skip, or the new Oleander's mind stuff, nope
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: so basically
ExplodingCabbage: there's well over 2 minutes of time to be saved in the first 14 minutes of his run
Inexistencensence: Yep
Inexistencensence: It can't be accepted can it?
ExplodingCabbage: well, worse has been in the past
Inexistencensence: At the end of Milla's mind, I'm 4 mins ahead
ExplodingCabbage: but my general rule of thumb is that without major mitigating factors 1 minute of detectible planning errors per half hour is a reject
ExplodingCabbage: that was the amount i rejected the first run i ever rejected for
Inexistencensence: d'aww
ExplodingCabbage: so yeah i'll vote to reject
Inexistencensence: Start of Boyd's mind, 5.5 mins ahead. There's no way his way can be faster
Inexistencensence: Alright. And watching it through, the play just isn't up to scratch
ExplodingCabbage: in what way?
Inexistencensence: Just watched a random part, where he's in Raz's mind for the first time. He's knocking arrowheads out of plants, then running away from them. There are two he just doesn't get, after waiting for a second or two for them to get close. It's just not good :/
ExplodingCabbage: is it alright if i stick this entire convo in spoiler tags and tack it on the end of my verification response?
Inexistencensence: Go for it. I don't sound too harsh do I? D:
ExplodingCabbage: nope, just frank
Inexistencensence: good good
ExplodingCabbage: i do feel more guilty about rejecting this than either of the runs i've voted to reject in the past, though
ExplodingCabbage: one of those runs was hitman blood money, which is light on execution difficulty and light on randomness, so that wouldve been easy for the runner to redo faster, and in the end i did it myself and shaved minutes and the runner was glad i did, so everyone won
Inexistencensence: To redo this run is a massive undertaking :/
ExplodingCabbage: the other run i've rejected was gta 4, which would also be a massive undertaking to redo, but where scm *snip*
ExplodingCabbage: so *snip*
ExplodingCabbage: but this run...
ExplodingCabbage: if i'm remembering right, butt3rs did it before ever joining the sda forum or having any interaction with us, plus he's contributed a whole bunch of tricks and generally been a constructive member of the community
Inexistencensence: Yeah
Inexistencensence: I don't like the idea of rejecting it. I really don't. If my run didn't exist, I think it'd be fine for it to be accepted, it's just the demonstrated proof of it being so much slower than it needs to be :/
ExplodingCabbage: so basically i do feel like i'm screwing him over a bit and i don't at all feel like he has it coming
Inexistencensence: I get how you feel
Inexistencensence: I really want it accepted
ExplodingCabbage: but yeah, the run just has too much wrong with it
Inexistencensence: I just don't know if it should be
Inexistencensence: I might talk to butt3rs, see if he's planning to redo it.
*snip*
ExplodingCabbage: anyway you put any more thought into psychonauts?
ExplodingCabbage: about the card vs figments issue... i was gonna have a look at it but people had already pointed out in the verification thread that a lot of the card collection is done at the same time as arrowhead collection
ExplodingCabbage: so i wouldn't really be able to tell how much time getting the cards actually costs
Inexistencensence: Arrowhead collection is pointless
ExplodingCabbage: why?
Inexistencensence: You need to collect 50 arrowheads as quickly as you can. You get those 50, and that's all that matters.
Inexistencensence: You use the 50 to buy something... I've forgotten what. It's a struggle to get the 50, but it's reasonably easily done
Inexistencensence: At that point, you only need arrowheads for the cobweb duster, which costs about 400. You can get these arrowhead while being chased by Linda. You lose no time at all, and there are more than enough
ExplodingCabbage: hmm
ExplodingCabbage: do you reckon you'll write a verification response for this? just trying to figure out whether to whip out a resopnse myself now or wait for you
Inexistencensence: I don't think I will do, sorry :/. I don't really have the motivation to get into a whole analysation mode for it :<
ExplodingCabbage: fair enough
Inexistencensence: I'm very lazy D:
ExplodingCabbage: what's your gut feeling on whether to accept or reject?
Inexistencensence: I really can't decide. I mean, the execution is fine and all. Not perfect, but fair enough. It misses out a bunch of skips, but it was created before mine where I found a lot and so did bloodisblue. The route, I don't agree with. I feel like it wasted a lot of time. I want to accept it, because it's a game that deserves a run badly, and it's not a bad run, but I don't know if I can say to accept.
ExplodingCabbage: btw are you sure you can get 800 arrowheads while being chased by linda?
Inexistencensence: Absolutely
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: that makes it a lot easier for me to estimate how much time is lost card collecting
Inexistencensence:
Inexistencensence: In my run I collect around 1300
Inexistencensence: Just from being chased by Linda
ExplodingCabbage: so how do you get the 50 arrowheads normally?
ExplodingCabbage: / correctly, i mean
ExplodingCabbage: what's the fastest way
Inexistencensence:
Inexistencensence: Covers most of them.
ExplodingCabbage: alright
Inexistencensence: Then there's just a couple here and there. It took ages to luck manipulate a load from Raz's mind
Inexistencensence: It was the fastest way I could fine
Inexistencensence: *find
*snip*
Inexistencensence: So, you seen the videos and arrowhead route?
ExplodingCabbage: yeah
ExplodingCabbage: one question:
ExplodingCabbage: on entering sasha's shooting gallery, you're ahead on rank, ahead on arrowheads, and nearly 2 minutes ahead on time
ExplodingCabbage: is this a fair comparison, or have you done tasks in a different order or something?
Inexistencensence: That's him taking time collecting cards
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: so it really just is that his run is much slower?
Inexistencensence: I'm pretty sure I fall behind in Sasha's, because I collect a lot of figments (Figments are worth a lot in Sasha's)
ExplodingCabbage: righty
ExplodingCabbage: but you're already ahead on rank entering sasha's, lol
Inexistencensence: well rank isn't much of an indicator, unless you're taking into account the amount of cards he already has
ExplodingCabbage: oooh yeah cards don't instantly rank you up, do they?
ExplodingCabbage: i forgot about that
Inexistencensence: Nope
ExplodingCabbage: so long since i've played
ExplodingCabbage: so he's rank 5 with 17 cards and 70 figments
Inexistencensence: So pretty much rank 7
ExplodingCabbage: you're rank 6 with 57 figments and 6 cards
Inexistencensence: So I'm a bit lower
ExplodingCabbage: yeah
ExplodingCabbage: let me look at the end of sasha's mind if you say there's lots of figment collecting there
ExplodingCabbage: you're at 9:53
ExplodingCabbage: rank 9, 94 figments, 6 cards
Inexistencensence: 9:53, Rank 10
ExplodingCabbage: he's at 11:20
ExplodingCabbage: rank 6
ExplodingCabbage: 20 figments
ExplodingCabbage: and 17 cards
Inexistencensence: So in every way, I'm dominating him
ExplodingCabbage: yes
Inexistencensence: I really need to just get the determination to finish my run don't I? ¬_¬
ExplodingCabbage: and that's your old run you're gonna restart, or...?
Inexistencensence: I was planning on it, but it isn't gonna happen
ExplodingCabbage: so it doesn't feature the 34 second tutorial skip?
ExplodingCabbage: or the new tricks in oleander's mind?
Inexistencensence: My old run doesn't include the tutorial skip, or the new Oleander's mind stuff, nope
ExplodingCabbage: right
ExplodingCabbage: so basically
ExplodingCabbage: there's well over 2 minutes of time to be saved in the first 14 minutes of his run
Inexistencensence: Yep
Inexistencensence: It can't be accepted can it?
ExplodingCabbage: well, worse has been in the past
Inexistencensence: At the end of Milla's mind, I'm 4 mins ahead
ExplodingCabbage: but my general rule of thumb is that without major mitigating factors 1 minute of detectible planning errors per half hour is a reject
ExplodingCabbage: that was the amount i rejected the first run i ever rejected for
Inexistencensence: d'aww
ExplodingCabbage: so yeah i'll vote to reject
Inexistencensence: Start of Boyd's mind, 5.5 mins ahead. There's no way his way can be faster
Inexistencensence: Alright. And watching it through, the play just isn't up to scratch
ExplodingCabbage: in what way?
Inexistencensence: Just watched a random part, where he's in Raz's mind for the first time. He's knocking arrowheads out of plants, then running away from them. There are two he just doesn't get, after waiting for a second or two for them to get close. It's just not good :/
ExplodingCabbage: is it alright if i stick this entire convo in spoiler tags and tack it on the end of my verification response?
Inexistencensence: Go for it. I don't sound too harsh do I? D:
ExplodingCabbage: nope, just frank
Inexistencensence: good good
ExplodingCabbage: i do feel more guilty about rejecting this than either of the runs i've voted to reject in the past, though
ExplodingCabbage: one of those runs was hitman blood money, which is light on execution difficulty and light on randomness, so that wouldve been easy for the runner to redo faster, and in the end i did it myself and shaved minutes and the runner was glad i did, so everyone won
Inexistencensence: To redo this run is a massive undertaking :/
ExplodingCabbage: the other run i've rejected was gta 4, which would also be a massive undertaking to redo, but where scm *snip*
ExplodingCabbage: so *snip*
ExplodingCabbage: but this run...
ExplodingCabbage: if i'm remembering right, butt3rs did it before ever joining the sda forum or having any interaction with us, plus he's contributed a whole bunch of tricks and generally been a constructive member of the community
Inexistencensence: Yeah
Inexistencensence: I don't like the idea of rejecting it. I really don't. If my run didn't exist, I think it'd be fine for it to be accepted, it's just the demonstrated proof of it being so much slower than it needs to be :/
ExplodingCabbage: so basically i do feel like i'm screwing him over a bit and i don't at all feel like he has it coming
Inexistencensence: I get how you feel
Inexistencensence: I really want it accepted
ExplodingCabbage: but yeah, the run just has too much wrong with it
Inexistencensence: I just don't know if it should be
Inexistencensence: I might talk to butt3rs, see if he's planning to redo it.
*snip*
Decision: Accept
Reason: This run has mistakes, but it's a good first submission.
Congratulations to 'Butt3rs'!
Thread title: