page  <- 12345678910111213141516 -> <- 1, 2 ... 16 ->
--
--
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
Ok, I don't know too much about portal but I'm quite confused by some things stated.

Why is this run being compared with the other run, it's a different category no?

And if it is the same category as DemonStrate run why would it not be allowed to try and improve that run with scripts?
Isn't that what the 'grandfather clause' is for?

Or would this mean that DemonStrates run can never ever be improved (unless you 'handicap' yourself with not using scripts and thus making it that much more difficult to improve the run), that sounds even more retarded to me.
Exoray
Quote from Zealie:
Isn't that what the 'grandfather clause' is for?

The grandfather clause is no more. That's what the rule changes that were mentioned were about.
Edit history:
Exo: 2011-04-18 01:44:08 pm
Exo: 2011-04-18 01:43:16 pm
Sandbagging
Quote from Zealie:
Ok, I don't know too much about portal but I'm quite confused by some things stated.

Why is this run being compared with the other run, it's a different category no?

And if it is the same category as DemonStrate run why would it not be allowed to try and improve that run with scripts?
Isn't that what the 'grandfather clause' is for?

Or would this mean that DemonStrates run can never ever be improved (unless you 'handicap' yourself with not using scripts and thus making it that much more difficult to improve the run), that sounds even more retarded to me.


Manual bhopping really isn't that hard. I've been practicing it for like 2 weeks and i can do it pretty consistently.
If people can't be arsed to learn it then they'll just have to post their run somewhere else.
That still doesn't change the fact that apparently there is a run (or multiple) on the site that has to be obsoleted by a different (more difficult) other category then the one it is currently in. Whether or not it's relatively easy to copy the possible scripts that are used should not be relevant imho.

I find this rather stupid.
But I (just) realise this isn't really the thread to discuss this.

On the current setting though, I do agree with this reasoning:

Quote from arkarian:
scripts were banned when this run was submitted. it should be rejected.
Edit history:
Exo: 2011-04-18 02:59:26 pm
Sandbagging
If youre talking about non-script runs obsoleting script runs then i wholeheartedly agree with you.

P.S. I also agree that this run should be rejected because of the new rules.
Visit my profile to see my runs!
Quote from moooh:
The grandfather clause is no more. That's what the rule changes that were mentioned were about.


Not technically true because runs that were submitted pre-rule change are in every sense grandfathered, as evidenced by their continued presence on the site. 

Someday the staff will probably tackle the thorny issue regarding runs that are essentially permanent fixtures on the game pages due to this non-retroactive rule change, but that is for another day.
Not a Zelda 2 refrence
for some games playing with scripts is a different category, there's no reason that couldn't be the case for new runs where the existing run has scripts
Edit history:
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 02:30:53 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 02:26:52 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 02:25:36 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 02:25:25 am
Visit my profile to see my runs!
No, there's a reason. We don't want any more of them, because the community has expressed its disgust with scripts to the point that we decided to change the rules.

OLD scripted runs are already sort of permanent on the site, when someday we'd like to get rid of them altogether (I believe).  Newer scripted runs would just make the problem worse.  Besides, if we continued to accept scripts, we'd be giving people incentive to keep working on scripted runs when we do not want them anymore.  We're done with scripted runs.  The only reason older runs have stayed on the site (up to this point, but I really doubt the staff is truly going to let them stay there forever), is because we didn't want to be unfair to people who labored under the impression that scripts were fair game.  But again, my guess is that these grandfathered runs won't remain so indefinitely and at some point will be removed.  But even if that isn't true, we don't want to have a community that works separately from the rules of SDA and continues to produce scripted runs for five or six franchises when the rest of the site has moved on, so we refuse to accept them even for games that still have grandfathered runs sitting on the site.

I hope this makes sense for you.  It would probably help if you knew the history of the scripts-debate.  Just so you know, the rule change was the final step in the process, but there was actually a time when we weren't sure how we felt about scripted runs and we actually DID continue to allow them for those franchises which already featured them.  But, dissatisfaction with this inconsistency in our rules eventually led (after a couple years and probably no less) to the rule change.
Edit history:
error1: 2011-04-19 02:48:03 am
Not a Zelda 2 refrence
I wasn't suggesting new scripted runs, just that the old runs should be in a different category.
I'm plenty aware of the history, I'm not a quake speed runner but I followed quake runs from the beginning
Edit history:
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 06:38:36 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 06:29:01 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 06:28:34 am
InsipidMuckyWater: 2011-04-19 06:26:49 am
Visit my profile to see my runs!
Oh ok.  Well, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that new runs which aren't scripted should be a separate category from the old ones with scripts, correct?  Well, if that is in fact what you are saying, we already do that.  If someone were to come along and [finally] do a run of Half Life 2 without scripts that was slower than the scripted run we have, both runs would be hosted on the game page because they would be separate categories.

EDIT:

Quote from Zealie:
Why is this run being compared with the other run, it's a different category no?


Which run do you mean?  DemonStrate's run that is already on the site?  Well, actually that run and this run are in the same category (both with scripts, neither with large skips/oob or whatever) from what I can tell. 

As for your other point, yeah, it's not a great idea to leave an old not-even-optimal scripted run on the site.  However, see my post above.  I feel it will not be terribly long before the staff starts putting an expiration date on the grandfather seats on the game pages for scripted runs that made it by the deadline.  I'm not staff or anything, but that's just my hunch.
The Great Farming Empire
How come the current run is still up then even though it also uses scripts?
Edit history:
grndino: 2011-04-25 09:59:45 pm
grndino: 2011-04-25 09:59:12 pm
You want to know why?  I'll tell you why:

I don't know.


keywords for this discussion include: grandfather clause, rule nazis, an introduction to SDA rules and regulations by explodingcabbage volumes 1 through 13
Don't think!  feeeeeal
So this is a 21s improvement with penalties added on a run that's only about 10 minutes of actual gameplay, I'd say that's a HUGE improvement!  When people beat contra or SMB runs by 1s they get accepted, why wouldn't this, it's improvement is about 10 times greater than those runs?  I can see no reason to reject this run, none of the verifiers gave legitimate reasons to reject either...

So what happens if a run gets 2 verifiers and they both reject because they thought the previous run was more visually pleasing and this wasn't a big enough improvement in their opinion?

Since when is verification up to subjective opinions of individuals without corresponding to rules in place, and since this is the case now we need to change this, people speak up!?
gamelogs.org
hey spider-waffle. i was a verifier. i rejected this run because it uses scripts, which are banned from sda. that's a rule in place which my decision objectively "corresponded" to.
I agree that Mike's stated reason for rejection seems a bit dodgy. Despite that it sounds like there were reasonable grounds to reject, though (i.e. scripts), so I'm not too bothered.

The current situation does kind of suck for both Kingpin and DemonStrate, though. :/
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:23:52 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:20:26 am
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Quote from arkarian:
hey spider-waffle. i was a verifier. i rejected this run because it uses scripts, which are banned from sda. that's a rule in place which my decision objectively "corresponded" to.


Quote from MikewUyama:
this run was completed before using scripts was banned so that doesn't really apply


Looks like I was right and you were WRONG!  Silence you, you've already said enough and done enough damage, besides digging a deeper hole is counter-productive...

INFORMED people speak up
arkarian said that he rejected because the run uses scripts, not that Mike rejected because the run uses scripts. Nothing arkarian said was wrong. Also, just because Mike says that the scripts rule 'doesn't really apply' doesn't mean that it wasn't in any way a factor at all. It seems highly unlikely to me that this run would've been rejected if it didn't use scripts.

Seriously Spider-Waffle, what do you think you're acheiving here other than pissing people off by being rude and quite possibly getting this thread locked? Your posts are not going to help Kingpin at all, and will probably result in the only thread on SDA where his run can be discussed getting locked. Fuck it, I'm tired of trying to have any kind of reasonable conversation with you. Just STFU.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 04:56:24 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 03:34:05 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 03:33:26 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 03:32:37 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 03:31:49 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:29:53 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:27:55 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:25:37 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:11:15 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:07:26 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:05:22 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:04:41 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:44:15 am
Don't think!  feeeeeal
I see your point and I had considered that.  Well, before we talk any more, what were the actual rules when this run was submitted about submission of runs with scripts completed before rule change.  Was it that runs submitted with scripts regardless of completion time would be rejected, or was it that runs with scripts completed before the date the rules went into effect wouldn't have the script rules apply to them regardless of when they were submitted, or was it that the rules were very vague and ambiguous and said they wanted the verifiers to decide what the rules were subjectively, arbitrarily, unfairly, and uniquely for all future runs?

I'm guessing it wasn't the third and probably something closer to the prior two.

I'm trying to prevent this and future injustices and help this site get it's shit together so there's less controversial rulings like this; you're welcome.

Runs should have clear objective criteria for rejecting and accepting and leave as little as possible up to naive verifiers to make their own unique arbitrary decisions, would you agree with that?  Clearly we are far from that and I'm trying to fix that; you're welcome again.

Basically, even if the rules weren't clear, it should never be up to verifiers to decide what they are, especially on something this black and white; it should be up to the person/people who made the rules, would you agree with that?

And in the case the controversial TM2 decision:
There should be a rule that verifiers can't reject a run on grounds of poor strategy if it's clear the runner has more knowledge and experience and is better at playing the game than the verifier and explains logically why the strategy he used was better than the alternative strategy the verifier suggested.  If the verifier has no accolades or qualifications on the game or games VERY similar to it, then he should have to prove that his strategy is better by completing a speedrun with it that's faster than the one in verification, and the run in verification should be allowed to be accepted until the verifier completes his speedrun.

^, yes that was meant to be serious and funny to show the irony in giving naive verifiers with no qualifications so much power over the site and turning into a BS fu*king three-ring circus...

After I just spit the truth and made so sense and pointed out how flawed things are AND how to fix them; thus creating the epoch of forward progress on this front for SDA, censoring this thread would make so little sense unLESS you want this discussion to be continued in another thread, or you don't want the public to be so aware of the flaws in management.
Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2011-05-03 06:16:07 am
mikwuyma: 2011-05-03 06:15:54 am
mikwuyma: 2011-05-03 06:11:52 am
My feelings on The Demon Rush
I can bold and italicize too!

Also wow, explodingcabbage telling someone to stfu and not trying to be objective or anything says a lot. Will you be the proud title holder of not one, but two verification topics locked because of you? I hope so Mr. Waffle.

EDIT: I swear my random avatar gallery knows what's up.
Balls jerky
Kingpin should post a video on youtube about this thread asking for help. :3
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:02:14 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:01:24 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:01:01 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 04:58:18 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
QUESTION: What advantage is it to SDA to not allow runs with scripts to be obsoleted by better runs with scripts, especially when both runs used the exact same scripts? (this feels like a rhetorical question)

Also, no one is going to beat the current runs that used scripts without scripts, ever, so it's a very moot point to say this run would have been accepted if didn't use scripts, because if it didn't use scripts it would have been slower than the current run that uses scripts and thus not be accepted because it is slower.  It's also a moot point to say you're hoping a run without scripts will obsolete the current run with scripts, because that's never going to happen.
that Metroidvania guy
Balls jerky
Take you argument and copy/paste it into the search bar. You'll find another 500 posts exactly like yours.
Metroidvanias are God Tier
Quote from Spider-Waffle:
Question: What advantage is it to SDA to not allow runs with scripts to be obsoleted by better runs with scripts, especially when both runs used the exact same scripts.

Also, no one is going to beat the current runs that used scripts without scripts, ever, so it's a very moot point to say this run would have been accepted if didn't use scripts, because if it didn't use scripts it would have been slower than the current run that uses scripts and thus not be accepted because it is slower.  It's also a moot point to say you're hoping a run without scripts will obsolete the current run with scripts, because that's never going to happen.

Well apparently another run with scripts beat it by 20 seconds. So there is already 20 seconds room for improvement and likely more (I don't follow the portal thread but judging by verifier 2's response I am just going to assume). I am not very familiar with scripts but from what Exo said I am going to assume its just something that automatically does certain tricks for you like bunny hopping. So basically all it would take is for someone to learn how to do these tricks without scripts and hey guess what they could beat the time.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 09:11:55 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 09:09:37 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:45:33 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:43:47 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 05:42:55 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Quote from Anonymous52555:
Well apparently another run with scripts beat it by 20 seconds. So there is already 20 seconds room for improvement and likely more (I don't follow the portal thread but judging by verifier 2's response I am just going to assume). I am not very familiar with scripts but from what Exo said I am going to assume its just something that automatically does certain tricks for you like bunny hopping. So basically all it would take is for someone to learn how to do these tricks without scripts and hey guess what they could beat the time.


But what's it's time after save penalties? I'm guessing more like -10s to 10s improvement.  Yes, in the case of these runs someone may be able to do this without scripts but it would take the essential equivalent of turbo functioning hardware which is also banned at SDA.  And in the case of HL runs, there's many things which will never be humanly possible without scripts.  And besides that, even there was some way to hedge on turbo-functioning hardware legality and slip a run past SDA none the runners with the skills to make the run would do it because these games where never meant to be speedran without scripts and the people that make the runs get this and thus will never waste our time making a run without scripts just to help some website that never tried to understand or help us.