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My feelings on The Demon Rush
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Sam 'Mouldy Cheese' Beekman's run

Verifier Responses

Quote:
Verifier: I have surprisingly few complaints about this Pokemon Sapphire run, aside from the headache inducing bouncing
Verifier: no signs of cheating, and no time savers worth really mentioning.  Only luck will make any significant difference in the future, or use of a new strat
me: yeah nate says he can fix that
Verifier: well then I say it's all good
Verifier: I can find maybe a minute's top worth of timesavers, and none of them are significant enough to bother mentioning in a detailed writeup this time


Quote:
Audio: Good
Quality: Good. Everything is synced up nicely. Though the screen seems to shake a little bit? I think that's just because it's a verification copy.

I enjoyed this run; it was almost like watching a TAS. I only know Mouldy didn't cheat because he ran into walls so many times lol.

General Summary
Holy crap he can select things fast. So can I, so I know that's possible.
The IVs on his Mudkip weren't THAT bad. Low IVs just means he would have to reset more times to get desired results, which he did. A+
This run is a very good example of how to manipulate luck to get the fastest time possible, and how much patience is needed to get desired results. Many future speedrunners can learn from watching this run.

There are some sloppy parts though (i.e.: not manipulating critical hits on easy-to-kill trainers). Also a lot of running into walls.
ANd during the Elite 4, I think it might be faster to teach Kyogre Thunder and KO the Ice trainer's pokemon without X-items. Unless buying Thunder takes too long, then never mind.

So like I said, this run is awesome because it's a great example of manipulating luck and optimizing a route to get the best time possible.

Decision: Accept


Quote:
I just finished watching the whole run.  No signs of cheating, and the A/V quality is fine.

It’s an easy accept from me.  I don’t have any complaints about it.  Watching it did make me really want to get one of those hori gba controllers to avoid movement errors.  The gamecube controller sucks for playing gba games.  I guess if I do another run I’ll have to get used to using the gba sp as a controller.

The runner did mention Mudkip’s IV’s weren’t optimal, so that’s one possible improvement.  I also noticed Kyogre’s SA and speed weren’t perfect, but that didn’t seem to make a difference.  Ironically, it appears to have a 30/31 attack IV.

The battles all looked good.  The Norman battle is particularly original.  I’d say it’s the highlight of the run.

There is a deathwarp in the run.  Poisoning is used to escape from Lavaridge gym.  This avoids a conversation with the rival where they give you the go-goggles, which is an unnecessary item in a speed-run.  It also saves you the trouble of using teleport to go back to Mauville, and heals all your Pokemon at once.

The runner used the male character for the run.  There was some discussion on whether using the female character was faster.  The reasoning was the Brendan’s dialogue is shorter then May’s.  I can’t recall if that was confirmed or not.

Overall, it’s a good run and unless someone really dedicated and lucky comes along I doubt it’ll be beaten.

On a final note, if anyone’s interested, the best time for sapphire using Mudkip on Ultima Garden is 2:15:15. 


Quote:
Alright, looked over the run.  No cheating issues, video quality is very iffy for the first 10 or so segments but fine after that, it may just be my computer.

About the run itself, I'm very torn.  On one hand, the strategies used were good, and there was evidence of considerable planning in most areas.  On the other hand...  Let's just say the movement itself is awful, shop visits for X items happen far more often then I think they should, and general manipulation could have been improved in a couple areas.

Another thing I find lacking is the torrent sweeping.  While you can say that the Mudkip chain has no powerful water attack until muddy water or surf, even when he got Surf he was still leaning on Mud Shot a bit too much.  Obviously it's different for the Carvahna and Sharpedo, but whatever.

One more thing: X-Attacks should NOT replace crits, and the runner does so at many times in his run.  Unless I'm mistaken (and i could very well be), critical hits deal double damage, while using your statups and ignoring your opponents.  Using two X-attacks/X-specials isn't really a good idea in a segmented run, that's more of an SS strat.

The runner did a segmented Pokemon run.  He knew beforehand the luck required would be immense...  But I still think more could have been done.  Better preperation, better crit manipulation, and of course, better movement could have easily made the run better.  I won't say the run is bad, but it's not great either.

Now, I go by a 2% rule (the mistakes in a run should make up no more than 2% of a run's time, and that's for SS runs.  Equates to about 80 seconds per hour).  For a segmented run, this should be reduced.  If the movement wasn't so sloppy, I wouldn't have a problem accepting this.  But bad menu movements at points in the run (that repel use, ugh), and absolutely terrible field movement (sure, you're on the mach bike, but even without it it's pretty bad)...

I have no choice (to me) but to reject the run, though it's somewhat borderline.  If I turn out to be wrong on the crit hit/x item issue, I may reconsider, but I have to say reject for now.


Quote:
It doesn't seem as if any cheats have been used, nor any glitches. The video and audio are synchronised. There is something which might affect the category in Segment 27.

The first three segments are all done well (the five or six second loss on Segment 2 can be excused for convenience). As a result of reaching level 10 and getting critical hits, the first Gym Leader battle is quick.

There's a lot of preparation for later battles in Segments 11-15, with items being acquired, Abra joining the team and Mudkip being evolved and learning two attacks.

A teleport is used at Mauville Pokemon Centre, which saves a few minutes. Segment 27 uses a clever tactic (essentially a death warp - while it's only used once, could that mean it's a different category) to avoid a conversation with May.

Segment 29's route through the Gym (Accuracy, Defence, Strength) is arguably the quickest. A few preparations are done before the next's Segment's great battle. Two vital Pokemon are gained and Lilycove is briefly visited to make a flight there available.

Marshtomp evolves in Segment 37, which is well-timed for the Gym Leader battle in Segment 38. The battle itself is great and Swampert easily takes out everything it fights. The Aqua Hideout section is great, as is Mossdeep. The Seafloor Cavern is also quick. There's a bit of delay in Segment 45, but not a major loss. After Kyogre is gained, it essentially completes the game on its own thanks to being taught a range of attacks.

Overall, it's a good run and one which uses many optimised strategies and route plans. The good points easily outweigh the mistakes. I'd say it's an accept.


Decision: Accept

Reason: Another Pokemon game brought to its knees.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
Greenalink: 2010-05-23 08:30:33 am
DS Dictator
I didn't verifiy the run because I would end up typing 20+ pages or so.... I need to learn how to cut it down without losing detail.

Quote:
If the movement wasn't so sloppy, I wouldn't have a problem accepting this.  But bad menu movements at points in the run (that repel use, ugh), and absolutely terrible field movement (sure, you're on the mach bike, but even without it it's pretty bad)...


From what I heard in the Pkmn Sapphire thread, the runner had input lag to deal with which is why he was walking when pushing the boulders, etc.

Quote:
One more thing: X-Attacks should NOT replace crits, and the runner does so at many times in his run.  Unless I'm mistaken (and i could very well be), critical hits deal double damage, while using your statups and ignoring your opponents.  Using two X-attacks/X-specials isn't really a good idea in a segmented run, that's more of an SS strat.


This is where critical hits on every turn is nearly impossible even with Dire Hit, this is a non-tas run remember and having 2 X-Attacks/Sp Atk is roughly 1 critcal hit without having to go through extreme manipulation.... if you see the recent TAS run there are some turns that the runner delay for like over 60 frames just to get Machoke receving both a Quick Claw strike and a Critical hit without being fully Paralyzed.

The Elite 4 Champion has an Armaldo that has Battle Armor which prevents recieving Critical hit damage.

Another minor advantage is that you get less extra messages saying 'Critical hit' so in reality it's a small loss over easier manipulation.

Quote:
Another thing I find lacking is the torrent sweeping.  While you can say that the Mudkip chain has no powerful water attack until muddy water or surf, even when he got Surf he was still leaning on Mud Shot a bit too much.  Obviously it's different for the Carvahna and Sharpedo, but whatever.


Again I didn't verifiy but even though Marshtomp has less Sp.Atk than Wartortle, it also has less speed and poor Water type coverage in the early game. FR/LG run has Water Pulse as a TM, while Marshtomp needs Surf which is after badge number 5. Marshtomp is notably much slower than most of the Hoenn pkmn in the reigon so I would assume that the runner didn't want to lose Marshtomp from faster pkmn slightly powerful enough to deal 33% of damage, enough to KO Torrent Sweepers.


This reply isn't complete without one of these

Willing to teach you the impossible
I'm looking forward to watching this run, I like to watch ones of the games I play... Well I watch all runs but I look forward to specific ones
Waiting hurts my soul...
Is this run the same as an low% run?
We all scream for Eyes Cream
Quote from Greenalink:



My response is this.

Joke of all trades
um, enough mudkips maybe congrats mouldy on getting an accept, not that I or anyone doubted your ability to do it
Edit history:
Mouldy Cheese: 2010-05-24 02:13:07 am
ok time to clear some stuff up. I dont know if you (verifiers) were able to read my notes on the game or not but ill say it here anyway. Ok biggest problem for me was the fact that for some reason there is a noticable lag between when i would press the buttons on the gba sp control till when it actually happened on screen, it was a big lag say 1/2 a second... because of this i would have to navigate menus and such before they were visable, when it came to certain boulder puzzles *shudders* it was physically impossible for me to do running or biking so i was forced to walk.

Having sub-optimal IVs really does make a difference, if my attack stat had been 1 or 2 points higher against may v2 i could have manipulated for wailmer to use only splash as mudshot would have killed her most of the time as opposed to 1/20 as were my odds for beating her, lets just not talk about groyvle...

As the shockwave vs thunder argument shock wave is noticable faster, 1:30 faster IIRC. To get thunder a trip to lillycove is required as is a battle against the rival and then the purchase aswell, for a possible improvement run i was thinking of freezing the 1st glalie with icebeam so i could the set up and sweep without the hail damage.

Agreed a few crits against Normans trainers would have been nice but that was about my 400th reset, most didnt make it past the linoone.

As for torrent sweeping, IIRC not even a torrent watergun can take out the zubats at the museum. However the zubat on mt pyre should have been torrent surfed but they survived because it wasnt in my notes that i needed to be knocked into torrent range by may v3 and getting hurt just to use surf would just waste time.

Using the male or female charcter doesnt really make a differnce, brendans dialogs are slightly faster, save a few frames so not worth it. However if u choose the female then brendan will lead with numel at rival v2, the hardest part of that segment is killing the groyvle and it would suck to kill it only to find out that the wailmer survives with a few hp.

Sorry about the 1st 17 or so segments i dont know why but for some reason they dont play right in Windows Media Player, they do work fine in VLC though???

Ok trust me on this, the shopping cant be improved, the amount of cash available and when the items are needed cant be dealt with any other way, and i limited the shop visits down to nearly as much as the TAS.

You will have to be more specific as to which battles have the x items where you say crits should be done. Here is a list the battles where x items are used and why. X items stack btw.

- Brawly, x attack crits are needed for the OHKOs
- May v2, 2 x attacks are needed for OHKO wailmer and the +2 crit is needed to OHKO groyvle
- Archie v1, 4 x attacks are needed for OHKOs, i could have used 2 and gone for crits but then i would be manipulating that aswell as QC activations
- Norman, obviously....
- May v3, i didnt want to have to manip simultaneously a QC crit on groyvle followed by a crit on wailmer considering the reverse took me 3 months in May v2
- Liza and Tate, rain + x special + torrent = double OHKO
- Archie v2, I need +4 attack to OHKO them all and the x attack is to cancle with the intimidate and is faster than sacrificing a pokemon
- Wallace, x special is needed to get the crit OHKO on Milotic
- Glacia, manipulate a double crit followed by another crit on the Walrein in the middle of an already hard segment (luck wise).................ARE YOU CRAZY???
- Drake, x speed to outspeed his last 3 pokes

Hopefully that clears that up XD

I felt kinda dumb trying to use that repel lol, only wasted a few seconds but the archie battle went well.

Anyway that should clear up most of the stuff, let me know if it doesnt

Thanks for the Accept guys XD

Mouldy Out xxx
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
I used VLC to verify, but they also work on Windows Media Player on my computer.
yeah well nate said that they will be fixed when he encodes it so its all sweet.
Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!
Just poking in to say I'm looking forward to this one! The optimization evidenced by the verifiers means I'm in for a real entertaining treat come news post time! Smiley Congrats Mouldy! Mudkips FTW!
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from ZenicReverie:
Is this run the same as an low% run?

Anyone that can answer this or did I get buried by mudkip pictures?
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
If low% means catching as few Pokemon as possible, it's not in that category.
DS Dictator
Low% would also mean no Flying slave, HM slaves will be a slight problem because the crappy base power for their moves (minus Strength, Surf & Waterfall).
For now it's technically any% since the runner captures some extra pkmn that saves time in the later run (Abra for Teleport and Kyogre as the new powerhouse).
AFAIK the only 2 pkmn you have to get in a low% playthrough is:
* Your starter
* Castform (a gift recieved from the Weather Institute).
The second problem for Low% runs is that you should not evolve your starter throughout the run.... otherwise it increases the number of caught pkmn on the Pokédex.
Waiting hurts my soul...
Thanks, just wondering because the only requested run was low%. How would you prevent your pokemon from evolving? Don't they do that automatically?
Weegee Time
Quote from ZenicReverie:
Thanks, just wondering because the only requested run was low%. How would you prevent your pokemon from evolving? Don't they do that automatically?

You just hit the B button when it tries to evolve.  A held Everstone also prevents the evolution sequence from occuring.
I'm really interested to see this run. It's almost a half hour shorter than my Ruby run. I already know this will blow my mind.
Congrats on getting the run accepted.  I don't really have much else to say.  If you do decide to improve on it I wish you good luck, as you'll need lots of it.  Possibly a different set-up to avoid input lag, and a good controller too.
Quote from Ascetic Swordsman:
Congrats on getting the run accepted.  I don't really have much else to say.  If you do decide to improve on it I wish you good luck, as you'll need lots of it.  Possibly a different set-up to avoid input lag, and a good controller too.


Yeah im thinking about an improvement run, if i can be sure i can get the run to <1:50 ill do it so any tips or ideas would be appreciated, so far i think ive got it to around 1:51 with a few changes and better execution. XD
Just watched the run and it is awesome! Only thing not optimized to the fullest was the bike and that is understandable, though a quick question: would it not have saved a bit of time to move up the Max Repels when you bought them? You kept having to go down your inventory to get to them.
Just finished watching this, and as a less than avid pokemon player (missed the trend as a kid, never really got into playing it for more than a few hours), it blew my mind how many battle could be plowed through. If you can take those 5 minutes off, I'd definitely be impressed, as all i could see being improved was the same stuff neskamikaze pointed out.

Of course, I don't know these games very well, so I'm always going to be surprised. Well done!
If i can get <1:50 ill be happy for eternity haha