My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: None yet
Piotr 'niebezimienny' Szerszenowicz's run
Verifier Responses
Decision: Accept
Reason: Another Infinity Engine game broken to pieces.
Piotr 'niebezimienny' Szerszenowicz's run
Verifier Responses
Quote:
Okay, this is a complicated one. After some reflection, I've collected my thoughts and here is my response:
A whole bunch of tricks have been found since this run was submitted. For detail, check the thread on the PC board. I'll summarise the major points here, though:
1) Talking to a party member while they are en-route to an area transition instantly teleports the party through the area transition.
Applications:
- Warping into Pharod's Court the moment you leave Weeping Stone, skipping some walking
- A couple of warps while travelling around the Wards, skipping some walking
- Using the portals in Ravel's maze from across the map to teleport to the exit portal, skipping some walking
- Warping straight into Fhjull's house after returning from Baator, skipping some walking
- Warping over the Sohmien on the stairs in the Curst Administration Building, skipping having to kill them
- Skipping the last few steps of walking before other area transitions, skipping a tiny bit of walking
2) Cutscenes that immediately (i.e. without any delay) follow a dialogue or area transition can be broken by accessing the Formations or Reform Party screens at the right moment.
Applications:
- Breaking the cutscene when you enter the Dead Nations, skipping both the cutscene time and the suicide afterwards.
- Breaking the cutscene where Annah appears in Pharod's Court to talk to her sooner
- Breaking the cutscene when you enter the area where you talk to the Alley Of Lingering Sighs.
- Breaking some (somewhat lengthy) cutscenes in the dialogue with Ravel
- Breaking the (brief) cutscene when you enter the Maze Of Reflections (for what little good it does)
3) Backstabbing Ravel during the delay before the cutscene where you take battle positions and she summons trigits, and simultaneously having a party member land a killing blow on you, breaks the pre-battle cutscene (the trigit summoning) and stops the post-battle cutscene (the arrival of shadows) from happening at all.
4) By exploiting the fact that you can save during the short delay between attacking a neutral NPC and them turning hostile, and that if you reload this save, they stay neutral and forget that you've attacked them, Annah can take down Cassius in the Curst prison with a series of crit backstabs and take Celestial Fire from his corpse, leaving The Nameless One free to backtrack to Trias the moment he opens the northern gate for her. This skips the death warp after getting Celestial Fire and the walk from the respawn point to Trias.
5) For some reason, the respawn point if you die in the starting area of Baator is in the Pillar Of Skulls area, deeper into Baator. So you can just suicide the moment you arrive and save yourself a walk.
I don't know precisely how much time all these save, but it's safe to say that we're talking about total savings of minutes, not seconds.
Thus we have a dilemma as far as accepting or rejecting goes. Two things that make me very reluctant to reject are that the improvements are all the result of fairly difficult-to-find tricks, not obvious things you would necessarily expect the runner to spot, and secondly, the runner actually did post his first couple of segments on the forum for scrutiny and ask for help but didn't get much of a response (I think I was at uni at the time and didn't have the game with me to test stuff, and then I forgot the run existed and never tested anything until it re-emerged now, completed :(). So I feel like it'd be fairly harsh to blame the runner for the fact that these tricks weren't found in time for his run. Also, if the new tricks didn't exist, this run would be close to perfect - the runner's route and resource planning are very solid.
On the other hand, saving minutes off a run that's only half an hour long is fairly substantial. And it's a pretty easy run from an execution perspective (once the run is planned, basically the only challenges in making it are some (relatively tame) luck manipulation, a small number of sections requiring you to micro two characters simultaneously, and dodging the shadows in the Fortress Of Regrets.)
My opinion: may as well accept this (assuming the runner doesn't decide to pull it now the new tricks have been found, which I suppose he may do). It's certainly nothing to be embarassed about - the potential for improvement is large but that isn't due to any huge, basic failures of planning or research (like in a certain run I controversially rejected a while back), it's just down to tricks the runner didn't know about through no fault of his own. So, without much enthusiasm but with the earnest hope that the runner will redo this with added tricks, I accept.
A whole bunch of tricks have been found since this run was submitted. For detail, check the thread on the PC board. I'll summarise the major points here, though:
1) Talking to a party member while they are en-route to an area transition instantly teleports the party through the area transition.
Applications:
- Warping into Pharod's Court the moment you leave Weeping Stone, skipping some walking
- A couple of warps while travelling around the Wards, skipping some walking
- Using the portals in Ravel's maze from across the map to teleport to the exit portal, skipping some walking
- Warping straight into Fhjull's house after returning from Baator, skipping some walking
- Warping over the Sohmien on the stairs in the Curst Administration Building, skipping having to kill them
- Skipping the last few steps of walking before other area transitions, skipping a tiny bit of walking
2) Cutscenes that immediately (i.e. without any delay) follow a dialogue or area transition can be broken by accessing the Formations or Reform Party screens at the right moment.
Applications:
- Breaking the cutscene when you enter the Dead Nations, skipping both the cutscene time and the suicide afterwards.
- Breaking the cutscene where Annah appears in Pharod's Court to talk to her sooner
- Breaking the cutscene when you enter the area where you talk to the Alley Of Lingering Sighs.
- Breaking some (somewhat lengthy) cutscenes in the dialogue with Ravel
- Breaking the (brief) cutscene when you enter the Maze Of Reflections (for what little good it does)
3) Backstabbing Ravel during the delay before the cutscene where you take battle positions and she summons trigits, and simultaneously having a party member land a killing blow on you, breaks the pre-battle cutscene (the trigit summoning) and stops the post-battle cutscene (the arrival of shadows) from happening at all.
4) By exploiting the fact that you can save during the short delay between attacking a neutral NPC and them turning hostile, and that if you reload this save, they stay neutral and forget that you've attacked them, Annah can take down Cassius in the Curst prison with a series of crit backstabs and take Celestial Fire from his corpse, leaving The Nameless One free to backtrack to Trias the moment he opens the northern gate for her. This skips the death warp after getting Celestial Fire and the walk from the respawn point to Trias.
5) For some reason, the respawn point if you die in the starting area of Baator is in the Pillar Of Skulls area, deeper into Baator. So you can just suicide the moment you arrive and save yourself a walk.
I don't know precisely how much time all these save, but it's safe to say that we're talking about total savings of minutes, not seconds.
Thus we have a dilemma as far as accepting or rejecting goes. Two things that make me very reluctant to reject are that the improvements are all the result of fairly difficult-to-find tricks, not obvious things you would necessarily expect the runner to spot, and secondly, the runner actually did post his first couple of segments on the forum for scrutiny and ask for help but didn't get much of a response (I think I was at uni at the time and didn't have the game with me to test stuff, and then I forgot the run existed and never tested anything until it re-emerged now, completed :(). So I feel like it'd be fairly harsh to blame the runner for the fact that these tricks weren't found in time for his run. Also, if the new tricks didn't exist, this run would be close to perfect - the runner's route and resource planning are very solid.
On the other hand, saving minutes off a run that's only half an hour long is fairly substantial. And it's a pretty easy run from an execution perspective (once the run is planned, basically the only challenges in making it are some (relatively tame) luck manipulation, a small number of sections requiring you to micro two characters simultaneously, and dodging the shadows in the Fortress Of Regrets.)
My opinion: may as well accept this (assuming the runner doesn't decide to pull it now the new tricks have been found, which I suppose he may do). It's certainly nothing to be embarassed about - the potential for improvement is large but that isn't due to any huge, basic failures of planning or research (like in a certain run I controversially rejected a while back), it's just down to tricks the runner didn't know about through no fault of his own. So, without much enthusiasm but with the earnest hope that the runner will redo this with added tricks, I accept.
Quote:
This is run is very good. Most of the tricks used have been developed at the SDA forum and in the GameFAQs guide over quite a long period of time; niebezimienny has also figured out numerous additional improvements. The resulting run *looks* very straightforward but the runner knows exactly which corners to cut. I found no evidence of cheating, and the audio/video quality is great, except that in some segments the fraps FPS counter is briefly visible. In short, a definite accept.
Some minor points of constructive criticism:
Total time lost due to these issues: perhaps somewhere between 30 seconds and 90 seconds, where the latter would require superhuman skill and patience.
Some nifty tricks I really liked:
All in all, very well done and thanks for running the best CRPG of all time!
Some minor points of constructive criticism:
- A number of improvements over the guide in GameFAQs were posted by leftside; it appears that not all of these have made it into the run. (Also, he's not in niebezimienny's acknowledgements so it appears he's missed it.) The most important improvement would be leftside's modification to the Ravel dialogue that avoids the cutscene in which the shadows appear.
- I think the number of segments is somewhat excessive, but since segment breaks are so cheap under SDA rules, I suppose that's to be expected.
- With more patience the Mark of the Savant would not have needed to be picked up. I'm sure ExplodingCabbage would have kept trying :-)
- The execution is very good, but nevertheless improvable, especially the hardest bits where two characters are controlled simultaneously. Sometimes the path is not quite the shortest possible. I'm not convinced it's helpful to kill the old lady in the lower ward.
Total time lost due to these issues: perhaps somewhere between 30 seconds and 90 seconds, where the latter would require superhuman skill and patience.
Some nifty tricks I really liked:
- With luck manipulation, the runner is able to solve *all* major confrontations with a single backstab (Lenny, Ravel, Trias, Ignus, two incarnations, ...) This avoids the need for dirty rat charms altogether, which saves a substantial amount of time.
- Killing the Dabus with TNO while Morte runs to the gate to the Alley. Dropping Annah from the party to avoid her cutscene.
- Simultaneously running to Giltspur/Lenny with TNO and to the print shop with Annah is tricky but worth it.
- Getting the portal *before* killing Kesai-Serris is definitely an improvement over previous plans on the forum.
- Getting Vhailor is also beneficial, and probably better than hanging on to Annah. (Annah would have led to an additional Ravel cutscene and reduced XP gain from Ravel, but she might have been useful in Curst prison and would have saved the time needed to get Vhailor.) But getting Vhailor is certainly better than remaining solo, he saves time in at least four instances, more than making up for the time required to get him. (Saves running to the exit of Fjhull's house twice, he waits by the portal after killing Trias, and he kills TNO to get into the Mortuary very quickly.)
- Runner activates all the cannons in the Fortress of Regrets using the quickest, but also quite difficult route.
All in all, very well done and thanks for running the best CRPG of all time!
Quote:
-- Video & sound quality good.
-- No cheating.
-- Near the end, there is a small discrepancy (the runner mentions it in his comments): he starts a segment with less health than he had at the ending of the previous one. I think that in some Torment versions, there is a bug that might have caused this -- if you are playing game A and load game B when you are just about to be damaged (in A), you receive the damage in game B (games A and B can be totally unrelated). However, the runner says these segments were done one after another, which doesn't support this. In any case, hit points aren't used from that point on, so the discrepancy didn't affect anything in any way.
-- IMHO at least two of the segment breaks were unnecessary -- the segments ended after walking cca 20 meters; in each instance, this could have been merged with the following segment quite well.
-- Good micromanaging and mouse control; I found only two or three misclicks worth noting. Great planning (including some nice party reformations) and good death abuse (well... can we call it "abuse" in Torment? :-)).
-- Overall: impressive run, ACCEPT
-- No cheating.
-- Near the end, there is a small discrepancy (the runner mentions it in his comments): he starts a segment with less health than he had at the ending of the previous one. I think that in some Torment versions, there is a bug that might have caused this -- if you are playing game A and load game B when you are just about to be damaged (in A), you receive the damage in game B (games A and B can be totally unrelated). However, the runner says these segments were done one after another, which doesn't support this. In any case, hit points aren't used from that point on, so the discrepancy didn't affect anything in any way.
-- IMHO at least two of the segment breaks were unnecessary -- the segments ended after walking cca 20 meters; in each instance, this could have been merged with the following segment quite well.
-- Good micromanaging and mouse control; I found only two or three misclicks worth noting. Great planning (including some nice party reformations) and good death abuse (well... can we call it "abuse" in Torment? :-)).
-- Overall: impressive run, ACCEPT
Quote:
I've been waiting for a P:T run ever since death abuse was allowed on this site, this trick is just made for The Nameless One.
HQ audio/video quality is very good, no problem whatsoever on my PC.
Planescape's fights are very easy, probably because the main character needs to invest in all the usual dump stats to get the most interesting choices in the game, so the main problems come from the execution, the pathing, as the runner said, and of course the inevitable luck based actions.
0:00 -> 3:30 The first trip through the morgue is fine, bar a little hiccup after the runner kills Soego. Nothing important, though.
Backstabbing thief is definitely the way to go in this game, since you just have to run out of sight to stealth, which is easily done given the average speed of the enemy.
Not much to say about the next 5 minutes.
8:30 -> 10:40 After some more running and gruesome deaths, our brave hero picks up his mandatory sarcastic love interest (greatest character theme ever, by the way) and runs to the Alley. The Nameless One gets stuck on Annah at 9:45, but I'm just nitpicking here. Kicking Annah to shorten the cutscene was a nice idea, kudos to whoever had it. The Harmonium simply passing by a half-naked bodybuilder murdering an old woman cracked me up.
Fetch questing for the next 2 minutes. Micromanaging must have been annoying indeed, considering the characters speed and their tiny line of sight.
12:40 If memory serves, those +2 daggers give something like +35% stealth, wouldn't have it been easier to equip them at the end of the previous segment? Doesn't impact the time, though, so it's all right.
15:30 Couldn't that pause have been avoided? Looks like even taking the hit would have been faster.
From now on, TNO can stay invisible as long as he pleases, so I really have nothing to say on the running phases. Never really understood the random XP at 21:00, but it's a good opportunity for a runner.
Nothing really interesting afterwards, it's just running while invisible and backstabbing bosses. The health problem at 29:10 is of no consequence, so I'm willing to let it slide.
I'd definitely accept the run, there are only a few very minor errors, quality is nice and I can't think of any improvements.
HQ audio/video quality is very good, no problem whatsoever on my PC.
Planescape's fights are very easy, probably because the main character needs to invest in all the usual dump stats to get the most interesting choices in the game, so the main problems come from the execution, the pathing, as the runner said, and of course the inevitable luck based actions.
0:00 -> 3:30 The first trip through the morgue is fine, bar a little hiccup after the runner kills Soego. Nothing important, though.
Backstabbing thief is definitely the way to go in this game, since you just have to run out of sight to stealth, which is easily done given the average speed of the enemy.
Not much to say about the next 5 minutes.
8:30 -> 10:40 After some more running and gruesome deaths, our brave hero picks up his mandatory sarcastic love interest (greatest character theme ever, by the way) and runs to the Alley. The Nameless One gets stuck on Annah at 9:45, but I'm just nitpicking here. Kicking Annah to shorten the cutscene was a nice idea, kudos to whoever had it. The Harmonium simply passing by a half-naked bodybuilder murdering an old woman cracked me up.
Fetch questing for the next 2 minutes. Micromanaging must have been annoying indeed, considering the characters speed and their tiny line of sight.
12:40 If memory serves, those +2 daggers give something like +35% stealth, wouldn't have it been easier to equip them at the end of the previous segment? Doesn't impact the time, though, so it's all right.
15:30 Couldn't that pause have been avoided? Looks like even taking the hit would have been faster.
From now on, TNO can stay invisible as long as he pleases, so I really have nothing to say on the running phases. Never really understood the random XP at 21:00, but it's a good opportunity for a runner.
Nothing really interesting afterwards, it's just running while invisible and backstabbing bosses. The health problem at 29:10 is of no consequence, so I'm willing to let it slide.
I'd definitely accept the run, there are only a few very minor errors, quality is nice and I can't think of any improvements.
Decision: Accept
Reason: Another Infinity Engine game broken to pieces.
Thread title: