Kirby's Return to Dreamland Speedrunning

2012-05-28 12:01:59 pm

Ah, good stuff. Smiley

That's definitely a nice improvement in 3-4, and great to hear that 7-1 Wing works out too.

And really nice challenge room runs!

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 04:27:33 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 04:26:47 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 04:24:22 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 02:14:48 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 02:08:35 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-29 02:07:06 pm

2012-05-29 02:04:54 pm

<(^_^)>

An attempt that was amazing from worlds 1-4 and ended at 7-1 =(

Approximate times: (this run | my current record)

1: 8:32 | 9:01
2: 19:28 | 20:08
3: 35:26 | 36:54
4: 50:04 | 51:39
5: 1:04:49 | 1:06:37
6: 1:21:23 | 1:23:59

Two and half minutes. I was ahead by two and a half freaking minutes. And I even got sniped by poppy bros in the cannon section of 4-1... TWICE, so that's about 15-20 seconds. I got trolled by the rhino in 5-2 (another ~10 seconds). Every boss fight sans Whispy Woods was mediocre, so that's easily at least another 30 seconds right there.

My current record can be beaten by AT LEAST 3 whole minutes, probably more. I think it can be beaten by 4 minutes eventually...

I can't believe I saved that much time. There were a few minor route changes (the only notable one was the wind section of 6-3, along with tiny things like passing the invincible candy in 3-4), but it can't add up to much more than a minute. Most of the time saved must have been from small optimizations; I landed almost all of my dive-cancels for most of the doors in worlds 1-2, which adds up.

Though now that I think about it, I guess the improvement is most noticeable in world 3, as I take many more risks to go faster, which explains why 80% of my runs that get past 1-1 end in world 3 <_< Seems like it's worth it in the long run though!

I'll definitely be trying a full attempt tomorrow, hopefully with better boss fights (because these sucked...) I'll be posting this failed run up on youtube soon though. It ends as I enter world 7 since I lost wing near the end of 7-1 and died against Hyper Bonkers when trying to improvise with Fire... Disappointing since I wanted to show new wing strats for 7-1 as well.

anyways, sub-1:43 is possible for sure, and I'm confident that sub-1:42 is possible too, since I still haven't accounted for the time gained from new strats for world 7. I still doubt we'll break the 1:40 mark, but who knows, I didn't think sub-1:44 was gonna be easy until now...

EDIT: Ok, if I get a full run tomorrow, then I guess I'll post that on youtube since there isn't much point in me posting this failed run. Otherwise though, I really won't be able to record for quite a while, so I'll post my attempt instead.

An attempt that was amazing from worlds 1-4 and ended at 7-1 =(

Approximate times: (this run | my current record)

1: 8:32 | 9:01
2: 19:28 | 20:08
3: 35:26 | 36:54
4: 50:04 | 51:39
5: 1:04:49 | 1:06:37
6: 1:21:23 | 1:23:59

Two and half minutes. I was ahead by [i]two and a half freaking minutes[/i]. And I even got sniped by poppy bros in the cannon section of 4-1... TWICE, so that's about 15-20 seconds. I got trolled by the rhino in 5-2 (another ~10 seconds). Every boss fight sans Whispy Woods was mediocre, so that's easily at least another 30 seconds right there.

My current record can be beaten by AT LEAST 3 whole minutes, probably more. I think it can be beaten by 4 minutes eventually...

I can't believe I saved that much time. There were a few minor route changes (the only notable one was the wind section of 6-3, along with tiny things like passing the invincible candy in 3-4), but it can't add up to much more than a minute. Most of the time saved must have been from small optimizations; I landed almost all of my dive-cancels for most of the doors in worlds 1-2, which adds up.

Though now that I think about it, I guess the improvement is most noticeable in world 3, as I take many more risks to go faster, which explains why 80% of my runs that get past 1-1 end in world 3 <_< Seems like it's worth it in the long run though!

I'll definitely be trying a full attempt tomorrow, hopefully with better boss fights (because these sucked...) I'll be posting this failed run up on youtube soon though. It ends as I enter world 7 since I lost wing near the end of 7-1 and died against Hyper Bonkers when trying to improvise with Fire... Disappointing since I wanted to show new wing strats for 7-1 as well.

anyways, sub-1:43 is possible for sure, and I'm confident that sub-1:42 is possible too, since I still haven't accounted for the time gained from new strats for world 7. I still doubt we'll break the 1:40 mark, but who knows, I didn't think sub-1:44 was gonna be easy until now...

EDIT: Ok, if I get a full run tomorrow, then I guess I'll post that on youtube since there isn't much point in me posting this failed run. Otherwise though, I really won't be able to record for quite a while, so I'll post my attempt instead.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 08:53:04 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 06:58:42 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 06:58:20 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 06:54:09 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 06:46:24 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-05-30 05:43:42 pm

2012-05-30 05:42:56 pm

<(^_^)>

Any% World Record: 1:41:09! Uploading the video on youtube right now! I lost wing at the end of 6-4, but like the other recorded run, I hardly lose any time there (lost even less than in my recorded run) because the rest of 6-4 is swimming, and most of 6-5 before regrabbing wing is timed.

EDIT:

Time comparisons
(this run | run from previous post | previous record) for worlds 1-6,
(this run | previous record) for world 7 and final time

World 1: 8:38 | 8:32 | 9:01
World 2: 19:25 | 19:28 | 20:08
World 3: 35:38 | 35:26 | 36:54
World 4: 49:54 | 50:04 | 51:39
World 5: 1:04:19 | 1:04:49 | 1:06:37
World 6: 1:20:50 | 1:21:23 | 1:23:59
World 7: 1:32:57 | 1:36:27
Final Time: 1:41:09 | 1:44:49

This run was REALLY good, though of course it has its fair share of mistakes. I'm confident that sub-1:40 is barely possible... The main mistakes are not finishing Moundo before he spins in 3-3 (I rarely finish him though...), bad blade knight and moundo fights in 5-5, losing wing in 6-4, and failing to finish magolor soul phase 1 before he goes in the background. This probably adds up to about half a minute of mistakes, and overall optimizations may potentially make up for the other half of that minute...

Any% World Record: 1:41:09! Uploading the video on youtube right now! I lost wing at the end of 6-4, but like the other recorded run, I hardly lose any time there (lost even less than in my recorded run) because the rest of 6-4 is swimming, and most of 6-5 before regrabbing wing is timed.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLncXnHPN4

Time comparisons
(this run | run from previous post | previous record) for worlds 1-6,
(this run | previous record) for world 7 and final time

World 1: 8:38 | 8:32 | 9:01
World 2: 19:25 | 19:28 | 20:08
World 3: 35:38 | 35:26 | 36:54
World 4: 49:54 | 50:04 | 51:39
World 5: 1:04:19 | 1:04:49 | 1:06:37
World 6: 1:20:50 | 1:21:23 | 1:23:59
World 7: 1:32:57 | 1:36:27
Final Time: 1:41:09 | 1:44:49

This run was [b]REALLY[/b] good, though of course it has its fair share of mistakes. I'm confident that sub-1:40 is barely possible... The main mistakes are not finishing Moundo before he spins in 3-3 (I rarely finish him though...), bad blade knight and moundo fights in 5-5, losing wing in 6-4, and failing to finish magolor soul phase 1 before he goes in the background. This probably adds up to about half a minute of mistakes, and overall optimizations may potentially make up for the other half of that minute...

yoshifan

2012-05-31 05:11:13 pm

Holy crap, that's an awesome improvement! You sure saved a ton of time over the 1:44 throughout the run. I'll be sure to watch this soon. Smiley

It's awesome that you got a really solid recorded run just in time. It's also too bad that you don't have access to recording for a while now, but I'm looking forward to your next attempts as always. It's amazing that any% is so close to 1:40 now.

kirbymastah

2012-05-31 08:20:16 pm

<(^_^)>

It's safe to say, partly due to recording equipment, that I'm done with any% for now, and I probably won't do any more serious attempts until I get a dvd recorder (not going to happen at least for the summer though <_< and I have no experience at all with recording stuff for realz haha). I tried a 100% single-segment for fun today, and it was... pretty disastrous LOL.

Anyways. I'll probably mess around with 100% strats and such for the next few months, and also mess around with KSSU routes

kirbymastah

2012-06-18 08:56:48 pm

<(^_^)>

OK. I ordered recording equipment (aka capture card) and I plan on getting some full recorded attempts for any% too!

I won't be recording/practicing 100% unless it's accepted at AGDQ2013 (and so far, it's any%).

But yeah, I'll get back into the game soon!

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2012-06-18 10:07:46 pm

2012-06-18 10:06:43 pm

Ooh, great news! You're definitely the one for any%; if you record a personal best then that'll almost certainly be submittable in my book. (Unless you do something like find a glitch that saves a few minutes, and PB with 3 deaths. Tongue

)

What do you mean by any% being the AGDQ 2013 category so far... oh, that huge thread. >_>

Regardless of whether it gets to be run at AGDQ, I'm slowly trying to get back into 100% running this game. I plan to do more detailed testing on Kirby's abilities - stuff like comparing the speeds of running, sliding, and cutter dashing, determining when slopes slow you down or speed you up, determining how much hitlag different moves have, and so on.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-06-18 11:12:30 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-18 10:59:17 pm

2012-06-18 10:58:10 pm

<(^_^)>

Haha thanks! The only problem with any% is, due to the marathon-seeting, I am VERY prone to losing wing at any time (though it rarely happens anymore outside of level 3-3 and 6-4), so I'll have to either practice back-up strats (but i'm lazy) or just improvise since I know the level layouts and enemy+ability placements really well (aka use pseudo-100% routes). I don't know if they'll prefer to do 100% at this marathon since it's an extra hour in a timeframe that's already really tight <_< (and I suck at 100%... for now)

I may try to push for a donation incentive for true arena, and maybe a war for which abilities i use but I doubt there'll be many donations haha

And... I haven't done much 100% at all, but i'll probably get back into this game pretty soon over the summer, especially after my equipment comes in, so I can test a few things too!

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-06-23 11:05:46 pm

2012-06-23 10:26:08 pm

<(^_^)>

Practice marathon run:

1: 8:38 | 9:15
2: 19:25 | 20:09
3: 35:38 | 36:28
4: 49:54 | 50:44
5: 1:04:19 | 1:05:10
6: 1:20:50 | 1:21:39
7: 1:32:57 | (forgot)
F: 1:41:09 | 1:42:53

I'm very confident in this run, and the marathon isn't even for half a year! The 50 second deficit in the first 2/3 of the game is from getting wing on my third mix try in level 1-1, so the quality otherwise matches the quality of my WR record... But I lost wing in the start of level 7-2, which easily burned off around 2 minutes until I got it back in 7-3 X_X Still, if I didn't lose wing, this would've been the new WR since my magolor fights were even better... ah well, I guess that's life

yoshifan

2012-06-27 12:02:18 pm

Wow! Looking really good. Smiley

I'm still not totally sure if this should be a race at AGDQ (as opposed to it being just you playing), but I'm leaning towards a race being the better option, provided I'm also practiced for it. On one hand, it's pretty hard to catch up if you happen to lose Wing at a bad spot. On the other hand, seeing Wing all over the place might get a bit repetitive (at least for casual viewers who don't know the nuances). Making it a race would make it more eventful and get people to pay attention to the nuances, where you can gain or lose time, and so on. I really don't mind whether I play or not, so it's mainly the viewing experience I'm thinking about. In any case, at least I have a few months to see if I'm going to put in the practice or not. Tongue

Also, I've recorded some tests and will use them to time various things in the next few days. I'll look at the stuff most important to any% first. One thing I've found so far though: with Fire, when you're doing Burns in the air one after another, holding forward on the D-pad between Burns actually slows you down. Just hold Up the whole time (instead of Up and forward), and you'll get maximum distance.

Wow!  Looking really good. :)

I'm still not totally sure if this should be a race at AGDQ (as opposed to it being just you playing), but I'm leaning towards a race being the better option, provided I'm also practiced for it.  On one hand, it's pretty hard to catch up if you happen to lose Wing at a bad spot.  On the other hand, seeing Wing all over the place might get a bit repetitive (at least for casual viewers who don't know the nuances).  Making it a race would make it more eventful and get people to pay attention to the nuances, where you can gain or lose time, and so on.  I really don't mind whether I play or not, so it's mainly the viewing experience I'm thinking about.  In any case, at least I have a few months to see if I'm going to put in the practice or not. :P

Also, I've recorded some tests and will use them to time various things in the next few days.  I'll look at the stuff most important to any% first.  One thing I've found so far though: with Fire, when you're doing Burns in the air one after another, holding forward on the D-pad between Burns actually slows you down.  Just hold Up the whole time (instead of Up and forward), and you'll get maximum distance.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:58:10 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:55:27 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:53:13 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:51:15 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:50:59 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-06-27 06:15:29 pm

2012-06-27 05:27:24 pm

<(^_^)>

Hmm I never knew about that, holding only up to get more distance with fire. I guess holding forward damages your momentum or something like that, which seems like the plausible explanation... I'm sure it's faster to hold forward with wing though, since momentum doesn't carry over into endlag of each condor head (unlike fire's burning).

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that going wing the entire run is fastest. I timed grabbing hi-jump at the hi-jump section in 5-3 (cuz, half the level is vertical climbing), and then getting wing at the very end, but just sticking to wing the entire level is faster.

I don't mind a race at all, in fact it'll probably be fun, but to be blunt (not offensive/condescending), for it to be entertaining, you'll definitely need a lot of practice with wing against the bosses to keep up with me Tongue

and also dive-cancelled door entries (but hey, you have half a year!) But yeah, really 100% would've been more marathon entertaining but understandably mike said to do any%, and doing a race will make it more interesting than WING WING WING WING.

I plan on timing a few things for marathon, like how much time is lost per level without wing, and how long it takes to backtrack to 1-4 to get wing, and etc. It's only going to be a rough timing since, I'm not perfect obviously, but... yeah. I'm focusing particularly in world 2 and 4, since world 3 is all water, and world 5-6 has wing available on occasion so I can't imagine it being faster to backtrack to 5-B, and world 7 is endgame.

Also, they left tons of extra time for donation incentives. True Arena is a given, and I'm very experience with doing hammer for it (Galacta Knight, hard? PSH), but would people think it'd be marathon appropriate to do a platinum run of all 7 challenge rooms too, as a donation incentive? I'll see if it's possible to fit by trying it out myself first (true arena should be about 10 minutes), since they gave 2:15 total, and if the runs go reasonably well, it should be around 2:50 hours.

EDIT:

a very bad true arena run got about 12:20 real time (8:54:63 in-game, horrible luck and two huge mistakes... horrible).

an arbitrary platinum run of all 7 challenge rooms took 14 minutes, and I got platinum first try in everything. Mistakes are obvious, but yeah. I should probably assume 20 minutes in case I take a hit or miss a coin (meaning retry a room).

So unless we go overtime, there won't be space for both. I've been practicing both a bit and of course, true arena'll take priority over challenge rooms.

Hmm I never knew about that, holding only up to get more distance with fire. I guess holding forward damages your momentum or something like that, which seems like the plausible explanation... I'm sure it's faster to hold forward with wing though, since momentum doesn't carry over into endlag of each condor head (unlike fire's burning).

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that going wing the entire run is fastest. I timed grabbing hi-jump at the hi-jump section in 5-3 (cuz, half the level is vertical climbing), and then getting wing at the very end, but just sticking to wing the entire level is faster.

I don't mind a race at all, in fact it'll probably be fun, but to be blunt (not offensive/condescending), for it to be entertaining, you'll definitely need a lot of practice with wing against the bosses to keep up with me :P and also dive-cancelled door entries (but hey, you have half a year!) But yeah, really 100% would've been more marathon entertaining but understandably mike said to do any%, and doing a race will make it more interesting than WING WING WING WING.

I plan on timing a few things for marathon, like how much time is lost per level without wing, and how long it takes to backtrack to 1-4 to get wing, and etc. It's only going to be a rough timing since, I'm not perfect obviously, but... yeah. I'm focusing particularly in world 2 and 4, since world 3 is all water, and world 5-6 has wing available on occasion so I can't imagine it being faster to backtrack to 5-B, and world 7 is endgame.

Also, they left tons of extra time for donation incentives. True Arena is a given, and I'm very experience with doing hammer for it (Galacta Knight, hard? PSH), but would people think it'd be marathon appropriate to do a platinum run of all 7 challenge rooms too, as a donation incentive? I'll see if it's possible to fit by trying it out myself first (true arena should be about 10 minutes), since they gave 2:15 total, and if the runs go reasonably well, it should be around 2:50 hours.

EDIT:

a very bad true arena run got about 12:20 real time (8:54:63 in-game, horrible luck and two huge mistakes... horrible).

an arbitrary platinum run of all 7 challenge rooms took 14 minutes, and I got platinum first try in everything. Mistakes are obvious, but yeah. I should probably assume 20 minutes in case I take a hit or miss a coin (meaning retry a room).

So unless we go overtime, there won't be space for both. I've been practicing both a bit and of course, true arena'll take priority over challenge rooms.

kirbymastah

2012-07-11 04:55:24 pm

<(^_^)>

Unfortunately KRtDL got cut from AGDQ marathon, since any% wouldn't be entertaining (and i guess that makes sense). And I'm sure they're not gonna give an extra hour to do 100%.

On the plus side, I got my first recording material, so expect a quality-test video on my youtube channel sometime soon!

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2012-07-12 02:09:20 am

2012-07-12 02:08:26 am

Sorry to hear it got cut from AGDQ. Sad

I dunno if you plan to come to the marathon now, but if you do, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to do a run for the bonus stream or the practice room. (And it'd be nice to meet you, of course!) But I'd understand either way.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-07-12 07:01:12 am

kirbymastah: 2012-07-12 06:17:10 am

2012-07-12 06:15:56 am

<(^_^)>

since I live literally right by the 4-H center I might as well stop by at times, and maybe run for the bonus stream XD It actually might not be a bad idea to just do any% and 100% runs in the practice room, or even race Wink

it'd definitely be nice to meet you all too!

yoshifan

2012-07-13 12:40:34 am

There are sure to be a few other fans of KRtDL at the marathon - after all, there were at least 4 at this year's SGDQ. So it'd be a good idea I think. Smiley

I'll definitely be up for a race of some sort if we meet at AGDQ. (I'll have to see about my classes before I can say I'm definitely going, but I don't see it being a big obstacle at this point.)

By the way, I finally did some frame analysis on this game, and got started on compiling movement and ability info. It's up on the SDA Strategy Wiki. There's still much of interest to test, and my numbers should generally be taken with a grain of salt, but it's a start!

kirbymastah

2012-07-13 10:20:58 am

holy crap, this is amazing! I don't really know how to test things (aka frame-specific stuff) but there are a few 100% route things I plan on testing after rewatching your 100% run. Namely, the following:

1. Is it faster to carry the fire ability in level 2-2 while using stone for the first energy sphere?
2. Similar to the above in level 4-3, is it faster to carry fire and only use cutter for that rope leading to energy sphere 3? (remember, you can still carry abilities through water as long as you don't drop it... X_X)
3. Is it better to switch to sword at the end of 6-2 and use its dash attack appropriately in the conveyer belt section of the start of 6-3? Or just keep spark and run with its electric barrier? I'm sure spark is faster, but it's never been tested...
4. At the start of 7-3, without mixing the three ninjas at the end of 7-2, fighter would be decent. But how much time would getting wing/fire/tornado/water save over fighter? Which should be prioritize to mix for? (Obviously wing first, but...) I also noticed you got Stone in the middle of 7-3 to slide down the slope with the fireballs; I guess in the default case of getting fighter, it'd be better to switch to stone for this stretch of land.
5. And of course, Wing vs. Ninja in the final fights. I'm biased, but I'm 99% confident that Wing can beat Landia + Magolor + Soul combined faster than Ninja. It's just a lot harder (But very doable, I've gotten down the wing quick-kills much more consistently now)

holy crap, this is amazing! I don't really know how to test things (aka frame-specific stuff) but there are a few 100% route things I plan on testing after rewatching your 100% run. Namely, the following:

1. Is it faster to carry the fire ability in level 2-2 while using stone for the first energy sphere?
2. Similar to the above in level 4-3, is it faster to carry fire and only use cutter for that rope leading to energy sphere 3? (remember, you can still carry abilities through water as long as you don't drop it... X_X)
3. Is it better to switch to sword at the end of 6-2 and use its dash attack appropriately in the conveyer belt section of the start of 6-3? Or just keep spark and run with its electric barrier? I'm sure spark is faster, but it's never been tested...
4. At the start of 7-3, without mixing the three ninjas at the end of 7-2, fighter would be decent. But how much time would getting wing/fire/tornado/water save over fighter? Which should be prioritize to mix for? (Obviously wing first, but...) I also noticed you got Stone in the middle of 7-3 to slide down the slope with the fireballs; I guess in the default case of getting fighter, it'd be better to switch to stone for this stretch of land.
5. And of course, Wing vs. Ninja in the final fights. I'm biased, but I'm 99% confident that Wing can beat Landia + Magolor + Soul combined faster than Ninja. It's just a lot harder (But very doable, I've gotten down the wing quick-kills much more consistently now)

kirbymastah

2012-07-13 10:51:54 am

Sorry for double post since I can't log in at the moment, but interesting things to note after skimming your amazing notes:

1. Perfect Burnings are barely faster than running on ice, and Imperfect Burnings on average will be about as fast as running on ice. I guess running on Ice is preferable for shorter distances.
2. Imperfect Invincible Slide Attacks are about as fast as perfect Condor Heads, so slide attacks with invincible candy should be used over condor head, but condor head should be used when Kirby needs to jump since condor head is faster than running speed with invincible candy
3. On the other hand, running/jumping with invincible candy seems to be exactly the same speed as perfect burnings, so it's preferable to avoid using burning if Kirby has fire while invincible, because we're kinda not gonna do frame-perfect burnings all the time lol
4. I always questioned if cutter dashes were faster than slide attacks; I guess this basically confirms it
5. I also always suspected that climbing down ladders was slower than just falling, but it was too close to really tell; I always assumed so since Kirby has to go through a "get on/off ladder" animation. Again, this is great that it's been confirmed!

Also, random fact: In level 3-3, in the two rooms with vertical shafts and a choice between 2/3 paths, the yellow underwater enemies (forgot what they're called) that shoot yellow energy bullets. Assuming Kirby is swimming down at full speed (which is easy), they finish firing their round of bullets JUST AS Kirby gets to them. You would've seen this in my any% current WR, but in case you haven't, this means you can just swim over them nonstop, without bothering to kill them. I tried with the Blipper, but they actually move, so it's not going to work with them Sad

Finally, to add to the previous list of "route changes to test for 100%", I guess I'll also test whether getting the invincible candy in 3-4 is faster or not, for 100% (it's faster to skip it in any%).

This data is great! It'd be awesome if you can get data for water/tornado soon as they're also important mobile abilities that are used often. I don't have any of the equipment/software to do any of the frame testing, but at the very least I can test routes on a higher level XD

Sorry for double post since I can't log in at the moment, but interesting things to note after skimming your amazing notes:

1. Perfect Burnings are barely faster than running on ice, and Imperfect Burnings on average will be about as fast as running on ice. I guess running on Ice is preferable for shorter distances.
2. Imperfect Invincible Slide Attacks are about as fast as perfect Condor Heads, so slide attacks with invincible candy should be used over condor head, but condor head should be used when Kirby needs to jump since condor head is faster than running speed with invincible candy
3. On the other hand, running/jumping with invincible candy seems to be exactly the same speed as perfect burnings, so it's preferable to avoid using burning if Kirby has fire while invincible, because we're kinda not gonna do frame-perfect burnings all the time lol
4. I always questioned if cutter dashes were faster than slide attacks; I guess this basically confirms it
5. I also always suspected that climbing down ladders was slower than just falling, but it was too close to really tell; I always assumed so since Kirby has to go through a "get on/off ladder" animation. Again, this is great that it's been confirmed!

Also, random fact: In level 3-3, in the two rooms with vertical shafts and a choice between 2/3 paths, the yellow underwater enemies (forgot what they're called) that shoot yellow energy bullets. Assuming Kirby is swimming down at full speed (which is easy), they finish firing their round of bullets JUST AS Kirby gets to them. You would've seen this in my any% current WR, but in case you haven't, this means you can just swim over them nonstop, without bothering to kill them. I tried with the Blipper, but they actually move, so it's not going to work with them :(

Finally, to add to the previous list of "route changes to test for 100%", I guess I'll also test whether getting the invincible candy in 3-4 is faster or not, for 100% (it's faster to skip it in any%).

This data is great! It'd be awesome if you can get data for water/tornado soon as they're also important mobile abilities that are used often. I don't have any of the equipment/software to do any of the frame testing, but at the very least I can test routes on a higher level XD

kirbymastah

2012-07-13 08:12:23 pm

<(^_^)>

Aight, from what I've tested (these are VERY ROUGH by the way)...

1. It is about 4-5 seconds slower to keep and carry fire for level 2-2, during collection of the first energy sphere. I guess using stone slide down those slopes is faster than I thought...

2. In 3-4, skipping the invincible candy is less than a second faster (I'd say about half a second), and this was when I luckily somehow navigated the shark room without taking a hit and killing all of them, which is not going to be consistent. I'd say it's better just to get the candy for consistency's sake

3. In 4-3, the first water room, when the tunnel starts declining... it saves like about half a second to a second to hug the top wall and hold right (which is a lot easier than what I did: space yourself to swim diagonally down by the floor and squeeze through the spike ball), then after reaching the dip, wait a second for that next spikeball to pass then swim over it and go through like normal. I can make a vid at some point if you don't know what I mean...

4. In 4-3, the room with the vertical columns of water where you need cutter to access a room with an energy sphere... I tried to eat the first sir kibble and catch the fire ability, and it's really freaking hard to catch it!!! I doubt it's really worth it either, as you have to drop the fire ability again a few seconds later to cut the rope and eat it, and there aren't that many places to use burning.

Aight, from what I've tested (these are VERY ROUGH by the way)...

1. It is about 4-5 seconds slower to keep and carry fire for level 2-2, during collection of the first energy sphere. I guess using stone slide down those slopes is faster than I thought...

2. In 3-4, skipping the invincible candy is less than a second faster (I'd say about half a second), and this was when I luckily somehow navigated the shark room without taking a hit and killing all of them, which is not going to be consistent. I'd say it's better just to get the candy for consistency's sake

3. In 4-3, the first water room, when the tunnel starts declining... it saves like about half a second to a second to hug the top wall and hold right (which is a lot easier than what I did: space yourself to swim diagonally down by the floor and squeeze through the spike ball), then after reaching the dip, wait a second for that next spikeball to pass then swim over it and go through like normal. I can make a vid at some point if you don't know what I mean...

4. In 4-3, the room with the vertical columns of water where you need cutter to access a room with an energy sphere... I tried to eat the first sir kibble and catch the fire ability, and [b]it's really freaking hard to catch it!!![/b] I doubt it's really worth it either, as you have to drop the fire ability again a few seconds later to cut the rope and eat it, and there aren't that many places to use burning.

yoshifan

2012-08-02 04:46:32 pm

Cool, thanks for those tests - I was curious about those parts myself (particularly 2-2 and 3-4). And I think I know what you mean about the swimming in 4-3.

Great to see your contributions to the wiki as well, we're really filling it up now. Smiley

I'm still working on the timing tests on and off. I've added some timing info for Fighter, Hammer, and Hi-Jump to the wiki. There's more to come soon - Ice, Ninja, and Water for example.

For Hi-Jump, my tests found that using air pellets between Hi-Jumps actually does not make Hi-Jumps more rapid; in fact, I was Hi-Jumping a little less rapidly that way. So using air pellets between Hi-Jumps seems to be slightly slower for horizontal movement (such as in the dark room in 7-2). I noticed that conflicted a little bit with the tips you wrote for Hi-Jump, so I tried editing that section to make it consistent, as well as clearly differentiate between horizontal and vertical movement tips. (I tried keeping your wording when I could, but um, I don't think I did a very good job of that. >_>; ) Of course, air pellets between Hi-Jumps are still much better for vertical movement because it cancels the descent, so I kept that in.

Cool, thanks for those tests - I was curious about those parts myself (particularly 2-2 and 3-4).  And I think I know what you mean about the swimming in 4-3.

Great to see your contributions to the wiki as well, we're really filling it up now. :)  I'm still working on the timing tests on and off.  I've added some timing info for Fighter, Hammer, and Hi-Jump to the wiki.  There's more to come soon - Ice, Ninja, and Water for example.

For Hi-Jump, my tests found that using air pellets between Hi-Jumps actually does not make Hi-Jumps more rapid; in fact, I was Hi-Jumping a little less rapidly that way.  So using air pellets between Hi-Jumps seems to be slightly slower for horizontal movement (such as in the dark room in 7-2).  I noticed that conflicted a little bit with the tips you wrote for Hi-Jump, so I tried editing that section to make it consistent, as well as clearly differentiate between horizontal and vertical movement tips.  (I tried keeping your wording when I could, but um, I don't think I did a very good job of that. >_>; )  Of course, air pellets between Hi-Jumps are still much better for vertical movement because it cancels the descent, so I kept that in.

doicm

2012-08-03 06:27:23 pm

Kind of a tangent to go on, but I thought I'd share here rather than create an entirely new threat for it.

I did a run of this game just for fun (any%). Got 2:45:45 RTA (from file creation to last hit on final boss). However, the way I did it would not be suggested for anyone else other than the one-time experience. I used no copy abilities throughout the entire run, with the two exceptions being the two boss fights where they are required. Some observations throughout that run/notes about the run:

* Enjoyed doing some of the boss fights where, rather than mashing an attack over and over, had to wait for a projectile to shoot back. I saw some moves that bosses did that I'd never seen before (especially Whispy).
* The super ability rooms in-level are painfully slow to do w/o hawk or super ability.
* I had two deaths: one was from a fall in World 4, and the other was against the very final boss.
* That was my second playthrough EVER for the game.

All in all, I still had a lot of fun playing it this way. However, if anyone were to ever suggest this as a gimmick for a marathon of any kind for this game, I'd be opposed to it based on the experience I had. It felt slow, and it honestly wouldn't be very fun to watch.

Kind of a tangent to go on, but I thought I'd share here rather than create an entirely new threat for it.

I did a run of this game just for fun (any%). Got 2:45:45 RTA (from file creation to last hit on final boss). However, the way I did it would not be suggested for anyone else other than the one-time experience. I used [b]no copy abilities[/b] throughout the entire run, with the two exceptions being the two boss fights where they are required. Some observations throughout that run/notes about the run:

* Enjoyed doing some of the boss fights where, rather than mashing an attack over and over, had to wait for a projectile to shoot back. I saw some moves that bosses did that I'd never seen before (especially Whispy).
* The super ability rooms in-level are painfully slow to do w/o hawk or super ability.
* I had two deaths: one was from a fall in World 4, and the other was against the very final boss.
* That was my second playthrough EVER for the game.

All in all, I still had a lot of fun playing it this way. However, if anyone were to ever suggest this as a gimmick for a marathon of any kind for this game, I'd be opposed to it based on the experience I had. It felt slow, and it honestly wouldn't be very fun to watch.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2012-08-03 06:39:41 pm

2012-08-03 06:39:32 pm

Claimh Happy

As a viewer of said run, I should add that although a full no-abilities run would be terrible, some of the bosses should be considered for no-ability donation incentives (assuming this is ever run again). Magolor's final form being possibly the best example.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-08-03 09:43:08 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-08-03 09:43:01 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-08-03 09:11:17 pm

2012-08-03 09:07:46 pm

<(^_^)>

You guys probably already know, but just in case you didn't, this game isn't being run at AGDQ; it was cut <_< I guess any% wouldn't be THAT entertaining (given it's 99% wing), so it's somewhat understandable. And I don't think bosses should be no-ability donation incentives, at least in-game, because it'll ruin the ability route, and watching no-ability bosses are just tedious to watch in general IMO. At best, true arena no-ability can be a donation incentive, but it'd be really long, repetative, and difficult without really entertaining that much. I'd rather just go Wing since Wing is really fun to watch and is fast-paced.

A full-game no-ability run, while a fun challenge, would just be boring to watch IMO. I think there's enough abilityless-Kirby action in the 100% run (alternate dimensions area) to be entertaining yet not overkill at the same time.

But anyways, I don't know how long an abilityless run would take, but sub-3 hours is really good consideing it was only your second playthrough. I might give it a try and see how I go; I'm confident sub 2:30ish should be possible... If you want arbitrary tips on how to run abilityless better, you can check out the knowledgebase Smiley

You guys probably already know, but just in case you didn't, this game isn't being run at AGDQ; it was cut <_< I guess any% wouldn't be THAT entertaining (given it's 99% wing), so it's somewhat understandable. And I don't think bosses should be no-ability donation incentives, at least in-game, because it'll ruin the ability route, and watching no-ability bosses are just tedious to watch in general IMO. At best, true arena no-ability can be a donation incentive, but it'd be really long, repetative, and difficult without really entertaining that much. I'd rather just go Wing since Wing is really fun to watch and is fast-paced.

A full-game no-ability run, while a fun challenge, would just be boring to watch IMO. I think there's enough abilityless-Kirby action in the 100% run (alternate dimensions area) to be entertaining yet not overkill at the same time.

But anyways, I don't know how long an abilityless run would take, but sub-3 hours is really good consideing it was only your second playthrough. I might give it a try and see how I go; I'm confident sub 2:30ish should be possible... If you want arbitrary tips on how to run abilityless better, you can check out the knowledgebase :)

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-08-04 09:02:32 am

Claimh Happy

Yeah, I knew it was cut. Kind of a shame, imo, since "99% Wing" isn't much different from how Nightmare in Dreamland is being run as Metaknight.

And yeah, other than the final boss, I can't think of any that would be interesting with no abilities, anyways. In that regard, though, final boss could work since you don't need wing afterwards Tongue

(and you already lose it on the previous form to get Lor powers.)

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-08-04 11:30:06 am

kirbymastah: 2012-08-04 09:26:59 am

kirbymastah: 2012-08-04 09:26:05 am

kirbymastah: 2012-08-04 09:25:55 am

2012-08-04 09:25:29 am

<(^_^)>

Quote from mapler90210:

Yeah, I knew it was cut. Kind of a shame, imo, since "99% Wing" isn't much different from how Nightmare in Dreamland is being run as Metaknight.

And KSS 100% is literally 90% Jet as well, with plasma spamming against bosses Tongue

Still, I couldn't really argue for KRtDL any% since 1. It's freaking 0xwas, 2. The speedrunners are more familiar with NiD and KSS, and 3. I'm not really known on these boards

Quote:

And yeah, other than the final boss, I can't think of any that would be interesting with no abilities, anyways. In that regard, though, final boss could work since you don't need wing afterwards Tongue

(and you already lose it on the previous form to get Lor powers.)

Don't you mean ultra powers? Tongue

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLncXnHPN4#t=99m42s (thanks Miles!)

Now that i just re-watched my magolor fight there... oh god, that was so slow...

doicm

2012-08-04 09:40:08 am

In case you're wondering about how the Magolor final fight no copy abilities went:

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=4RjFpPu1lPg#t=43m0s (take out the space)

I died the first time, so here's the second attempt at full health. I think what was most note worthy is how I was able to get a few double hits in from one star.