Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland (100% v12

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-12 07:35:03 pm

Claimh Happy

Well....shit. I really don't know, then. MUGG to the rescue, hopefully -_-

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-13 03:29:38 pm

Claimh Happy

According to romscout and sir_VG, hitting the ice block and Frosty at the same time guarantees extra damage. there seems to be an additional source as well, since I've gotten 4 hit fights without that, but looking back I ALWAYS had a 4 hit fight when I hit the ice block.

now I need to test Mr. Tick Tock in 2-4. I killed him in one Multi-star before (should leave him with 1 hp) and now I think I know why.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2011-11-15 01:28:40 pm

2011-11-15 01:27:59 pm

TASer

I tested this to death.. Burning always deals 5 damage on every version of the game (E,U,J), Frosty always has 22 HP. No matter how often I enter the battle or how I do the attack, I always needed 5 hits to kill Frosty. His HP goes 22,17,12,7,2,0.

So I suspect some kind of glitch is causing this; it might be because mapler90210's catridge, as he explained to me, uses feRAM instead of SRAM but I'm not really sure what that means...

Sir VG

2011-11-15 01:58:02 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Sorry MUGG. As much as I luv ya, it's not a glitch with his particular cart. I can produce it fine - more then once. And I know my cart is legit.

It's because of the ice block exploding or something of that nature. No ice block? 5 hits. He starts throwing one? 4.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-15 03:27:56 pm

Claimh Happy

MUGG, do you know whether there's any way to manipulate miniboss (or normal bosses, for that matter) behavior other than RNG? For now I'm going to practice under then assumption that there's not, but if there is I might be able to get 4 hits more consistently.

And yeah, I guess I'm going to practice again. Most of you probably weren't even aware I stopped, but the 4 hit/5 hit thing was really bugging me. Now that I know it's not just me, time to patch up 2-1 and 2-2 with Burning, and fix 2-4 because I was being stupid. Level 3 wasn't really changed, but I do need to practice it more, that's for sure.

Surreal

2011-11-15 04:52:36 pm

dabes

I had already explained (and showed) to Mapler that he has gotten the 4 hits, and gotten the extra damage hit, before Frosty even pulls out an ice block.

I'm really have trouble seeing the ice block having a connection if he can do it without any ice block around.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2011-11-17 06:15:11 am

MUGG: 2011-11-16 08:43:57 am

2011-11-16 08:42:02 am

TASer

@ Sir VG:
At the time he contacted me about this, he was the only one that managed to kill Frosty in 4 hits.
Just like Surreal said, I don't see a connection between the ice blocks and the extra damage. I can't get it to work even when I wait until he starts throwing ice blocks, or when I attack the ice block (at any frame, with any part of Kirby's body). The damage always goes 22,17,12,7,2,0. And I'm pretty sure I saw one instance in mapler's recorded stream where he didn't break an ice block and still killed Frosty in 4 hits.

@ mapler90210:
You can manipulate stuff by (not) sliding, starting to dash, landing etc. etc. but I don't see a way for normal speedrunners to manipulate luck.

I think it would be great if someone besides me tried to kill Frosty in 4 hits on emulator and get a VBM of it.

Surreal

2011-11-16 11:10:31 am

dabes

I've tried already and wasn't able to ever get 5 hits either.

I was going to suggest it being a matter of his body's positioning (since he extends his arm out further when throwing the block, I figured maybe you get one more hit before you burn away from him), but after looking at some of mapler's attempts I have seen that he gets them even without his arm extended OR an ice block.

I guess one example would be at 13:08 in the highlights link that MUGG posted.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-16 01:35:11 pm

Claimh Happy

MUGG, ill work on a vbm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-16 09:00:46 pm

Claimh Happy

Does Mix work the same in this as in Kirby's Adventure? Like does it have the same order and the same rule of 7? I'd test, but I can't seem to find the list again.

As for the vbm, I still haven't managed it on an emulator. So frustrating :S

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-19 12:29:43 pm

Claimh Happy

Turns out that during an LFB, ditching your ability give you a height boost. Or to be more specific, you essentially take a second bounce in midair. So you go twice as high. This speeds up the beginning of 2-5 since I can boost on top of the starting ledges instead of bounces and landing in front of them (and since I changed 2-4, I'll have Spark at the start of that level which I can afford to ditch since I get Wheel in the next room). It also speeds up 2-3 a little, but the difference seems to be negligible and it's a lot harder, so I don't really want to do it.

Also, I was wrong about sliding. It does save time, and I can use it in a lot of places. For some reason it just didn't look faster when I was testing it before. Oh well.

And one last note, at the end of 2-2, there are two enemies in front of the Star Door, a waddle dee and a Sword enemy. I used to slide kick the waddle dee and run by, but it turns out you can just barely jump between them and land on the ledge with the door. It's a lot harder, but it's just so fun that I have to do it Tongue

Turns out that during an LFB, ditching your ability give you a height boost. Or to be more specific, you essentially take a second bounce in midair. So you go twice as high. This speeds up the beginning of 2-5 since I can boost on top of the starting ledges instead of bounces and landing in front of them (and since I changed 2-4, I'll have Spark at the start of that level which I can afford to ditch since I get Wheel in the next room). It also speeds up 2-3 a little, but the difference seems to be negligible and it's a lot harder, so I don't really want to do it.

Also, I was wrong about sliding. It does save time, and I can use it in a lot of places. For some reason it just didn't look faster when I was testing it before. Oh well.

And one last note, at the end of 2-2, there are two enemies in front of the Star Door, a waddle dee and a Sword enemy. I used to slide kick the waddle dee and run by, but it turns out you can just barely jump between them and land on the ledge with the door. It's a lot harder, but it's just so fun that I have to do it :P

Floogal

2011-11-23 04:26:44 pm

Quote from mapler90210:

Does Mix work the same in this as in Kirby's Adventure? Like does it have the same order and the same rule of 7? I'd test, but I can't seem to find the list again.

Here are my results from testing Mix on the NES version. (Check the followup post at the end of the thread as well.)

Regarding Burning on Mr. Frosty, I don't have the ability to test right now. But if I had to guess:
1) Kirby has multiple hitboxes when using Burning, one of which does 6 damage instead of 5 (similar to High Jump).
2) On certain frames of the attack, it does 6 damage instead of 5.
3) Some combination of the above 2.

MUGG already tried testing the hitboxes, but some extra people trying out couldn't hurt.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-23 08:50:48 pm

2011-11-23 08:36:36 pm

Claimh Happy

Of course. Right below the damage charts I posted earlier in this thread >_>. Anyways, thanks a bunch. Time to test it.

EDIT: I've found no indication that the order has changed, nor that it gives different results from KA. The only thing that seems to be different is that the starting point is not random. It is always the first enemy you suck in. Either that or I witnessed a 1 in 1048576 event purely because it was something I may need to rely on later. Murphy's law and whatnot. Thanks again, floogal.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-12-07 04:55:07 pm

2011-12-06 10:30:50 pm

Claimh Happy

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16291022

Absolutely ridiculous. Meta-Knightmare TAS. 24:16. Amazing. Not sure what to take from this, since running under enemies that barely leave the ground isn't what I'd call reliable.

Since I'm already uploading it for MUGG, here's a video of Mr Frosty in 4 hits. A lot.

Kubelwagon

2011-12-15 06:57:32 pm

Oh hey, a revived Kirby:NiDL topic.

I tried taking on an any% run a while back. The fastest (recorded) time I got was 47:06. I never submitted because I wasn't satisfied with it. Way too many silly mistakes. If I get around to it, I'll Anri the run and put it up on YouTube for reference.

And nice find with the Frosty fight. I knew there had to be a way to kill him fast with Burning. Tongue

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-12-15 07:40:56 pm

Claimh Happy

It's not reliable, though. I usually just take a 5 hit fight and move on.

Thanks for posting a time. I still need to work on the second half of the run, but it's nice to know what I'm looking at in terms of time.

0xwas

2012-09-21 01:28:36 am

revive again.
I started kirby 100% in this week and I have 50:53 now. (video is available on my twitch)
I had one death and some resets in it. I think 49 is good goal.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-09-21 11:14:04 pm

Claimh Happy

I guess I'll throw my hat in too: I'm back to serious attempts in any% and re-routing 100% (though I'm not sure how much I'll be able to really improve). My goal is a 45:xx for any%.

Here's an updated route for Levels 1 and 2. Level 3 has been planned, I'll upload the videos (any% and 100% diverge here) once I get a good run through that section (has to be during a run so that I'm in the right places in-between levels and so switches are actually in the level).

Mapler

2012-09-26 05:01:18 pm

I've been looking at this a lot, so I'm re-posting this here to make things easier.

Originally from Floogal:

01 - Fire
02 - Spark
03 - Cutter
04 - Sword
05 - Fireball
06 - Laser
07 - Mike
08 - Wheel
09 - Hammer
10 - Parasol
11 - Sleep
12 - Needle
13 - Ice
14 - Freeze
15 - Hi Jump
16 - Beam
17 - Stone
18 - Ball
19 - Tornado
20 - Crash
21 - Light
22 - Back Drop
23 - Throw
24 - UFO

First enemy you inhale is the starting point. If you let it run out on it's own, add 7 for the final result. If you want the next power on the list, hold down A or B while you swallow (be careful with B. if you aren't holding it down from when you inhaled the enemies, pressing B again will spit them out).

As my own note, I have never been able to stop on the ability 5 spots down on the list (2 abilities before the Mix Roulette ends on its own). Probably my own fault, but if someone can confirm that'd be cool.

PJ

2012-09-26 05:14:38 pm

Is PJ

Sleep (utterly useless) + X = Ball (ultimate destroyer). I enjoy NiDL math.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2012-09-26 10:01:38 pm

2012-09-26 06:53:49 pm

Claimh Happy

Stone also gives you ball, which may actually change something in World 5 for any%. Maybe 100% too, but I'm not sure.

Edit: You can ignore that side note, I managed to do it. The timing is still awkward, though.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-10-12 04:27:39 pm

Claimh Happy

Just found out something from the Kirby wiki that I really should've known already: Heavy Mole (5th boss) shoots two different colors of missiles, Red and Orange. The red ones are the ones that give Sleep, the orange ones give Hammer. So it's still random, but there's no reason to actually swallow the red ones.

Sir VG

2012-10-12 10:52:19 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from mapler90210:

Just found out something from the Kirby wiki that I really should've known already: Heavy Mole (5th boss) shoots two different colors of missiles, Red and Orange. The red ones are the ones that give Sleep, the orange ones give Hammer. So it's still random, but there's no reason to actually swallow the red ones.

I don't know how you didn't know that, since the Red one is shown in the ending credits demo. Unless you always kill him in 5 seconds.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2012-10-13 09:52:31 am

2012-10-13 09:51:45 am

Claimh Happy

I usually go in with Hammer already, so yeah.

Also, I didn't even know there were two colors Tongue