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Poxnor: 2011-04-12 11:10:30 am
Moo! Flap! Hug!
I'm currently talking with Mike about what timing method should be used for FFL.  Clearly, since there's no game clock, we have to use wall-clock time.  But, we need to choose a start frame and an end frame.

For the start frame, I was thinking the frame when the screen goes white (before the story starts scrolling) right after you press A to start a new game, since you can immediately influence the scrolling speed of the story.

For the end frame, I've been pondering a few different choices.  I think my favourite may be the first frame of the Creator's death animation (when he starts splitting in two).  I was also thinking about the first animation frame of the final attack to connect with the Creator, but I'm not sure I like that one as much (since, theoretically, you could use any number of different attacks to kill him...though I don't know why any run would ever use anything except some variant of SAW).  Yet anther frame that could be used is when the text "CREATOR went to pieces" first starts to appear, since that's roughly equivalent to the final damage numbers appearing (which I think is what is used as the end frame in some other RPGs on SDA).

What are your thoughts on which frame to use (as opposed to me bugging poor overworked Mike about it)?

Thanks!
It's been a long time since I've played it, but can't you control more dialogue after he's dead? If not, then I guess you follow standard RPG timing and stop any time during the death hit.
1-Up!
From what you're saying it sounds like timing ought to stop once the boss takes the hit. Haven't played this game, though, so maybe there's something I'm missing.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Quote from Terribleno:
It's been a long time since I've played it, but can't you control more dialogue after he's dead? If not, then I guess you follow standard RPG timing and stop any time during the death hit.

There is dialogue after he's dead, but you no longer control it.  It's a (terrible) auto-scrolling ending Wink

Plus, I'd think that even if there were controllable dialogue after he's dead, then it would count as part of the ending.  Wasn't there a similar decision regarding the Chrono Trigger ending, if I recall?

Sorry to have so many questions: when you say any time during the death hit, so you mean that the start of the last hit against the enemy would be used as the ending frame?  As a reference, we can look at ShinerCCC's run, starting at time roughly 9:35 --
Everything's better with Magitek
Controllable dialogue during the ending of my FFIX run wasn't counted, so I wouldn't think it would be counted here.
1-Up!
Right, dialogue boxes aren't considered for start or end points.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
So, I discussed the issue with Mike, and we have a definitive rule for timing this game.  Timing begins on the frame your character appears in Base Town (so choosing your class and naming your first character do not count towards the time).  Timing ends on the frame at which your final hit is confirmed to land on the Creator.  If you're using SAW to kill the Creator (I don't know why you wouldn't), that's the frame when the "C" appears in "CREATOR went to pieces."

I got a sub-70 recorded, but watching it in order to make my comments, I'm having serious doubts about its quality (possibly too many hesitations, and too tentative in places).  I may try to shave off a bit more before submitting; I'll think about it.

Cheers!
--Poxnor
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Got a sub-68 recorded this evening.  This time, I'm just going to hang onto it for a while, under the assumption that I can do better with some more attempts, haha Smiley
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Oh come on Poxnor...you love teasing us, don't you ;_;

plzzz submit it so we can see it. I helped get this run going, I think I deserve something.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Quote from ShinerCCC:
Oh come on Poxnor...you love teasing us, don't you ;_;

Haha, sorry Shiner, I wasn't trying to tease Smiley  I was just updating my progress Smiley

Quote from ShinerCCC:
plzzz submit it so we can see it. I helped get this run going, I think I deserve something.

You know, you're right.  I was thinking about trying to improve the run (there was a bit of bad luck with NPCs, and a bit of bad piloting in the glider and the bike).  But I could try until the dogs come home to get perfect luck with those stupid NPCs, and the bad piloting isn't going away (sorry, haha, I suck at those parts!).

I'll submit my 67:55!
Do you think with insane luck that a sub-1 hour run would be possible? Even then, 67 minutes on this game is beyond my imagination. Shocked
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Quote from Terribleno:
Do you think with insane luck that a sub-1 hour run would be possible?

Not without a new route (and even with a new route, I doubt it -- though many a speedrunner has eaten those words).  If I had perfect luck with my route, and silk-smooth execution, 67:30 would roughly be the limit.  Maybe 67:00, though I doubt it.  So I'm fairly happy with the 67:55.  My only gripe is that I lost 15 seconds all in one place to one piece of bad luck Smiley
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Quote from Poxnor:
If I had perfect luck with my route, and silk-smooth execution, 67:30 would roughly be the limit.

Well, to follow up on my previous post: I had no intention of recording another run.  I was happy with the 67:55, and had submitted the comments and description to Mike.

But, I have a lot of work to do, and no desire to do it.  So, to avoid it, I loaded up FFL this afternoon, and just threw on the DVD recorder out of habit (as I said, no intention of trying to get another run).  By crazy fluke, I had near-perfect luck.  There were a few minor hiccups in my execution, but very minor.  And I got a 67:35 recorded.  So, yeah, I'd say that somewhere around 67:30 would be the limit of this route.

Now, I just have to modify my comments, and ask Mike to throw out my old comments for the 67:55 and replace them with my new ones for the 67:35 that I'll submit Smiley  (I feel bad for all the work I've caused him!!  I'm trying to be a good SDA-citizen, but I think I'm a little bit more like the yappy dog that lives down the street right now!)
I suppose I should've caught the time of the TAS run to give a bad rough estimate. Still, 67 minutes is damn impressive for this game. I'd be happy to watch this if and when I get the time to.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Quote from Terribleno:
I suppose I should've caught the time of the TAS run to give a bad rough estimate.

Hmm, the TAS on TASVideos is under two minutes, but uses a glitchy earlier version of the game.  I think I heard about another TAS around the 40-minute mark at some point, but if I recall correctly (and I stress the "if," since I'm not sure), I think that TAS wasn't SS (it used resets to basically avoid all fights?).  I never saw it though, so I can't say for sure.

Quote from Terribleno:
Still, 67 minutes is damn impressive for this game. I'd be happy to watch this if and when I get the time to.

Thank you very much Smiley  I've recorded a number of runs in the 67:35-68:00 range now, so I'm pretty confident to call this time my personal best and submit what I have.  I'm sending Mike the revised submission notes this evening Smiley
(Can guests post on this board?)

I am, in principle, TASing this game with FatRatKnight.  I say "in principle" because I've been very busy with school lately and just haven't had the time for it.  My last run, which was near-finalized quality, got through World 3 in 20 minutes.  I therefore expect we'll finish the game at around 30-35 minutes.  FatRatKnight has a finished run at just under 40 minutes, but that was made before we implemented botting for more sophisticated luck manipulation.

You are correct, though, that it isn't "single-segment" (if that applies to TASes).  We use dozens of soft resets throughout the game, manipulating luck to be exactly what we want.  I've already suggested to Shiner that it should be possible to mostly copy the TAS exactly.  Only a few luck manipulations cannot reasonably be done on a Game Boy (they require manipulating two RNG values instead of one, which is much harder, but alternate strategies exist).

Anyway, with both a Japanese TAS and a non-assisted speedrun beating us to the finish line, I've got to get my ass in gear.  I have a term paper due next week, but after that, I hope to get back on the saddle and burn through this game.  Thankfully, SDA has a pretty long delay between submission and publication, so I'm still hopeful our TAS will be published first.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
In FFL, you can save anywhere outside of battle.  Is there a time penalty for each save in a segmented run of a game like this?  (If not, a segmented run would largely consist of segments in which you take nine steps then save, avoiding all unforced battles...)
Edit history:
Poxnor: 2011-06-04 11:19:27 pm
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Never mind; my previous question is unimportant.  I planned the first nine segments (getting as far as going underwater with the airseed) -- very interesting segments and route.  I subsequently realized that the rest of the run would be mind-impalingly boring Wink

Edit: in case anyone was curious, here was what I was thinking...

Segment 1
Code:
Base Town:
- Female mutant (POX)
- Guild: 2-up, 1-up
- Speed
- Sell Sabre
- Buy 5-down, 4-down, 3-down
- Equip default, 1-down, 2-down

Defeat the Bandit:
- Lizard: run
- Zombie: mash ; mash ; 3P eats
- Asigaru: run
- P-Frog: mash ; 2P eats

Save one square to the right of the wall that contains the stairs to the
outerworld, located on 1F Bandit's cave.


Segment 2
Code:
To Castle Armour:
- Zombie: 1,2,1 ; 2P eats

Save two squares south of cave (i.e., there's one empty square between you and
the cave).


Segment 3
Code:
To Castle Armour:
- Goblin: mash ; 2P eats

Walk two squares south after fight and save.


Segment 4
Code:
Back into Cave:
- Zombie: 1,2,1 ; mash ; 2P eats

To Castle Armour:
- No fights

Save when you are to the right of the last mountain in the Bandit's Mountain
Range (i.e., there are four mountain squares to your west, but none northwest
of you).


Segment 5
Code:
To Castle Armour:
- Lizard: run
- Equip armour

To Castle Sword:
- Albatros: mash ; 3P eats
- Zombie: run

Castle Sword:
- Red Bull: 1,1,2 ; 2P eats
- 2F guard hopefully moves north (not necessary)

Save on 2F near stairs that lead to King Sword's room.  As you're heading south
down the long wall, save as soon as the entirety of the stairs become visible,
but before the square south of the stairs becomes visible (it's the
northernmost point at which there are a lot of wall squares to your left).


Segment 6
Code:
Castle Sword:
- Lizard: 1,1,2 ; 2P eats
- King Sword: 1,2,2
- Equip Ice -> Sword

Leave Castle Sword:
- 2F: guard hopefully moves north (not necessary)
- Three fights on way to Castle Shield (3rd = pre): flee

Save on 1F Castle Shield


Segment 7
Code:
Castle Shield:
- Switch 1,2
- Skeleton: 2,mash ; no-eat
- Steward: 2,mash

Hero Town:
- Equip:
    - Armour -> default
    - Sword -> 1-down
- Use Sphere
- Gen Bu: 2,1,2 ; mash ; mash

Base Town:
- Lizard: run
- Inn

Tower:
- 2F: south then west
    - Gargoyles: run
- 3F: step-south, west
    - Gargoyle: 2,mash ; 3P eats
    - Onis: run
- 4F: step-south

Save immediately after the first step on 4F.


Segment 8
Code:
Tower:
- 4F: east and around
    - Gargoyles: run
    - O-Bakes: run
- 5F: step-south, five squares left

Save when door is half-visible on screen.


Segment 9
Code:
Tower:
- Switch 1,3
- Worms: 1,1,2 ; mash ; 3P eats

Caves:
- First cave: always right
- Second cave: left from entrance, all the way right
    - Magicians (pre): run

Floating island:
- Left from initial position, south
    - Gecko: run
    - Get airseed
- West when one square south of town island (do not touch the island)
    - Magician: run
    - Geckos: run

Save underwater after taking two steps south of bridge (i.e., there will be one
square of water south-east of you).
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Sorry for the triple-post: would one of the admins be able to rename this thread to "The Final Fantasy Legend," and assign control of the thread to someone (either ShinerCCC or myself), as opposed to having this guest-started thread floating around?  I think there is a lot of great discussion that could be happening about this game Smiley
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
yeah I made this post before I had an account, my bad.

So you can take nine steps before an encounter, you say? I say you can take more. You know how when you turn on the GBA, you can hold a direction, or a direction + A and get different colour schemes? Each colour scheme has a different PRNG to try out. Find the one with the longest leap you can take!
If you're interested in a segmented run, then you'll probably want to look at the TA record report on ultimagarden.
It was done on the Wonder Swan Color; that version has an in-game timer.  Unsurprisingly, it's pretty much a Beetle saw fest.

http://ultimagarden.net/report/zeroshiki_saga1_ta30.txt

I agree with Shiner;  you'll need to find the maximum number of steps you can take between encounters, and that value could be much larger than nine.
As I was really bored, I managed 57 steps without an encounter, so yeah you'll be saving less frequently than every nine steps.
Moo! Flap! Hug!
Thanks Shiner and nitwit!  (I can't understand a word of the UG text, unfortunately; Google Translate helps humorously little.)  Which colour scheme did you use to get 57 steps (was it off a hard reset)?  Either way, it seems like a segmented run would be *painfully* boring after the first world and first ascent...

Interestingly, it seems like finding the smallest amount of time until an encounter could actually be used during that first portion, in order to trigger meat-dropping battles.  I was still thinking that Mutant-F / Catwoman / Oni would be a good way to end the first world -- Gen-Bu takes three rounds, because the mutant's mana is much lower.  I'm still thinking that the mutant's grenade attack would save time on the forced encounters later on (skip getting Stone in a segmented run); agree / disagree / bored-and-don't-ever-want-to-see-it?
I used the base color scheme and lots of soft resets.  Actually, I have since managed 82 steps without an encounter.

I can't read Japanese, but from Google Translate and cross-checking I am pretty sure of the following for world one.

Hero is Clipper. 

Second and third party members are male mutant and Albatross, respectively.

One non-mandatory battle (Goblin) is fought in order to transform the Clipper into a O-Bake.

Critical Hit from O-Bake's Chill ends the battle vs. the P-Frog in one turn.  P-Frog meat is obtained an given to the Albatross.  However, the male mutant also acquires the ability S-Gaze.  The WSC version would come in handy here as stat ups and ability acquisitions are described in the post battle text.  On GB you would have to access the menu to check. 

Needless to say the rest of the first world is pretty much "S-Gaze ends battle in one turn; male mutant must act first to save even more time."

It's an incredibly minimalist run; I think the only item purchased is the Battle Sword.  I would need to check more carefully, but I think that the only non-mandatory battle fought over the course of the entire run is that lone Goblin.
Any reason why a segmented run wouldn't follow the TAS exactly?  (Aside from the fact that we haven't made it yet... *cough*...)

One thing we quickly discovered is that TELEPOR saves a lot of time.  It will save you a trip back from the bandit's cave, a trip back from Castle Sword, and most impressively, you won't need to fight GEN-BU.  It also saves time in a few other parts of the run.  We've decoded mutant growth completely and discovered that the quickest you can get TELEPOR is after four battles, but that's only if you have four mutants in your party.  We've researched it pretty extensively and we're about 98% certain that a four mutant party is the way to go.

As for avoiding battles, I can tell you everything you want to know about encounter rates and avoiding battles.  The encounter rate is not a constant and varies with your environment and terrain.  It's as low as 3 per 256 steps in the glider and as high as 64 per 256 steps in World 4 when SU-ZAKU reigns.  You can read our notes on the RNG here:
http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/GBx/FinalFantasyLegend.html
(But the site is temporarily down.)

This means the largest gap between encounters is 125 steps and the smallest largest gap (if that makes sense...) is 12 steps.  We also know where the RNG table is in the RAM and, thanks to my recent mapping efforts, what the encounter rate is in every tile of every room of the game.  Tile information is stored from bytes D000 to DF7F and encounter rates are stored in bytes C5C3, C5C4, and C5C5, corresponding to this table.  Choose any angle, any question on avoiding random encounters, I'm confident I'll be able to answer it.  I can even tell you basically how the RNG table is constructed (more than you ever wanted to know, I'm sure).

Anyway, if you want a typical best case scenario for the gap between encounters, you can walk 93 steps in World 1's plains and forest without fighting a battle.  These correspond to getting C33B=A1, corresponding to a roll of 38.

You say that a segmented run would be too boring later in the game, and while that may be true for the viewer, I can assure you that the most boring part for you would be near the beginning.  World 1 features much more intricate and difficult luck manipulation.  Weeks or even months could be spent perfecting those segments alone.  After that, it becomes much more straightforward.

On an unrelated note, I asked Mike Uyama to make me a verifier for your single-segment run.  I never got back to him because he said there were already plenty of verifiers, but I still feel I have a unique perspective to offer.  It's certainly worthy of publication and while there aren't any major mistakes, there are a few significant (and simple) ones.  My notes include the following observations:
At 14:24, you go right when you enter the World 2 caves.  Going left is many steps shorter.
At 14:59, you go up around the island rather than left and down.  I believe this costs two extra steps or about half a second.
I was a little confused by your decision to waste steps and run away from an extra battle from 18:15 to 18:35.  I conjectured you were trying to manipulate it so that you don't get any encounters in the BLUEKEY hall.  Is it worth it instead of charging straight in?  Would it still be worth it if you corrected the mistakes (?) above, gaining a few extra steps?
At 19:53, you pick up all three treasure chests-- SILVER armor, a GRENADE, and a book of CURE-- but I didn't check whether you used all three.  I believe I remember seeing the GRENADE and CURE used in the run, but did you remember to equip the SILVER armor?  Have you tested the game to verify that your character dies if you don't equip the armor?
I saw some battles that seemed unnecessary.  I don't have their time indexes offhand.  I assume that all battles were for picking up meat or gaining mutant abilities.
I noticed that you chose to fight SU-ZAKU instead of running from him.  I'm not so sure this is the best option.  It may be better to run from him, though if you do, you will burn through your running RNG and might hit a pocket of six "can't run" rolls, which would be unacceptable in a SS run.  Your other option would be to pace around inside the tower and subway until the RNG is aligned so that you avoid SU-ZAKU as best you can.  Fighting three battles with him before reaching the first subway station strikes me as rather excessive...
At 45:22, your dismount from the bike could have been a little smoother.  It's very minor error.
At 45:46, you dismount and walk around the bike to talk to So-Cho.  The fastest method for talking to him is to go left two tiles, then right one, then dismount.
At 49:57, 50:35, and 50:47, you ride the elevator all the way down.  It turns out you can "jump off" it when it reaches the top of the door.  Just hold right and you'll save a few steps.  This is a very minor mistake, but easy to fix.
At 59:30, you TELEPOR back to World 1, fight a single battle with a LIZARD, and TELEPOR back to ASHURA's floor.  Why?

Like I said, these mistakes are all very minor and you run is definitely worth publication.  I just think you should be aware of them in case you decide to improve the run.

Also, I'd like to offer my thanks for your contribution to our TAS.  You talked with the Creator on floor 22, which was a strategy I hadn't seen or considered.  Our old strategy was to talk to him in Base Town, but this will save many precious frames.  We're one step closer to perfection, thanks to you!