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thri11ki11
2010-05-11 07:16:58 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
0:34 SS is a huge improvement. I'm guessing that swiping the extra Metal Knuckles off Monk B is paying dividends in the latter half.

I'm not really experienced with trying SS runs on this, but do you know how far Yang generally is from leveling before tackling the Adamant Forest? It won't help you when you're running with Ursula, but if an extra quick fight or two on Mt. Hobs will boost Yang up a level you might have better luck running from beasties when you're controlling him.

I'm also curious to know where you cut your other corners...?
Sir VG
Sir VG
Edit history:
Sir VG: 2010-05-12 06:02:43 pm
2010-05-11 11:16:57 pm
Fucking Weeaboo
Pretty much what I changed from my 0:41 included:

1. Getting Hermes Sandals & Baccarus Wine.
2. Get 2 High Potions from chests (1 at Mt. Hobs & 1 at the Meteorite)
3. Buy High Potions before the invasion (I've also tried buying at the beginning as well)
4. Strip the Metal Knuckles from Monk C and give to Yang in the last battle before Kain
5. I don't fight ANY random battles.
6. I take the shortcut in the Adamantite Islands
7. Let Yang go to town on Adamantoise

Yang wound up at Lv 16 at the end, but I don't know how close.  I know with one RNG setup I do wind up with a Zu at Mt. Hobs, which is a good 432 Exp, according to a Bestiary at GameFAQs, which should be the best 1 battle EXP builder.  I think if I get both the sandals and the wine & buy 2 High Potions before leaving Fabul, I get him after Mom Bomb.  If I can kill everybody off during Mom Bomb, fight the Zu alone with Yang...that may work to my benefit, and possibly change the RNG for the rest of the game in my favor...will need to test.

Here's the encode of my 0:34 run:

Edit: I also tried a setup where I buy 2 High Potions but don't pick up the Wine and Sandals until after the invasion of Fabul.  This gave me 2 fights before Mt. Hobs but none after that until I reached Mom Bomb.  Still got an awful setup for Adamant Isles so I still wound up with a high 0:34.

I also tried buying 2 High Potions and getting the Sandals and Wine before leaving, killing everybody at the Mom Bomb Fight (so Yang hits Lv 16), buying more potions whenever possible...and wound up with a low 0:35 (and that was even with getting the Slow via the first Five-Star Crimson Palm).  Yeah, I'm not getting a 0:33 Single-Session.  There's too many random battles you just can't avoid like you can in a segmented run.
thri11ki11
2010-05-12 05:42:17 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
A tip for replicable results:

Game, from hard reset, starts with RND seed x.
Go through the introduction of the tale, yadda yadda, till you get outside. Run into a fight, then soft reset. This will change the seed to seed y.
You'll have to get through the intro once again, which is a pain in the ass, but then you'll have a fresh start seed y.

The trick is that if you hard reset, you have seed x again, but you can do the same thing and end up with the same seed y. Additionally, if you run into two fights before you soft reset, you'll get a new seed z. In this fashion you can almost always replicate seeds as long as you play the same way before the soft resets. It's just trial and error till you get a good seed, then grinding to good execution.

But you probably already knew this.
Sir VG
2010-05-12 09:58:35 pm
Fucking Weeaboo
Yeah, I understand the basis of the RNG.  The thing is eventually it breaks down, given how long I'm playing the game compared to your segmented run.  I'm gonna run into random battles...and a lot of them, in the end.  I've tried various things to change which ones show up and avoid the ones where the enemies get guaranteed attacks (the worm and wyvern on the bottom floor of the Meteorite and the Spirits/Ghouls or whatever at Adamantite Island), but there just isn't a way to manipulate enough out to cut the time down further on SS runs.  4 minutes sounds like a huge gap between Seg and SS, but if you compare the number of random battles between the two, you see why.

So yeah, unless somebody is craftier then I am, 0:33 just isn't gonna happen.

I plan on spending some time later with Lunarian's Story too and work on improving that one, since I saw a couple things in your videos that I missed, mostly a shortcut in travel time from the meteorite to Lair of the Father.  I'll see how close to 0:34 I can get from my old time of 0:43.
Sir VG
Sir VG
Edit history:
Sir VG: 2010-05-16 02:23:51 pm
2010-05-16 02:32:17 am
Fucking Weeaboo
I've now dropped the Lunarian's SS time down to high 0:40.

Improvements over the 0:43:
- Used Bio against everybody in the climb up except the final one, where I used Firaga then Bio.
- Used a better path from the Meteroite to Lair of the Father and from Lair of the Father to the Crystal Palace.
- Not using the Unicorn Horn.
- Better Mysterious Girl fights.

Things that could be improved yet:
- I screwed up on Fusoya's magic list and pulled up Thundara, not Thundaga.
- Better off using one last Double Black Magic against Zeromus instead of Bio/Flare.
- Better Ether management (but I did have enough)
- Hopefully not getting some of the awful back attacks I had in the deep floors on the way down.
- Not picking up that stupid High Potion.  While I understand it was to create a higher HP for the item used, it's a bit too flakey to count on here.
- Not picking up that Unicorn Horn either.  If I keep a running track in my head of the Mysterious Girl's HP and time a Thundaga/Flare combo well, I don't need it.
- Probably buying 5 tents and pick the 1 up right on the path, instead of 4 tents, pick 1 up and 1 cabin
- Just general improvements here and there.  This was the first time in a while that I've done this storyline.

I figure I should be able to get 0:39.  I think I made enough mistakes to cut it down to that, but I don't think much more.  I do pick up more items then the Segmented run, but I do have more things that can go wrong.  And I did need every last one of them.  I ended my 0:40 with only the Unicorn Horn and Ancient Sword.

But overall, not a bad first take on this.  Didn't have all the problems with this one as I did with Yang's Story.  Probably due to the fact I have somebody that can do massive curing. ^^;;


Edit: Managed to pull of my 0:39 with about a 15-20 margin.  I did get stuck with a couple of Chimera Brains (back attack, no less) in the lower floors of the Lunar Caverns and the first Malboro hit Golbez with a Constrict, making that battle a screwfest.  It may be possible to get a 0:38, but if so, everything would have to go right, no bad luck and no bad ring (meaning no Chimera/Chimera Brain back attacks either).  And even that would be a barely.
thri11ki11
2010-05-17 04:43:37 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Congrats, it looks like you're pulling those SS times down quite a bit. I'm not surprised that Lunarians is easier for you than Yang's... I always considered it your scenario since you were the trailblazer on that one. Luck is definitely a big deal in this one though... fail rate is high considering how hard the bosses hit.
slowbro
slowbro
Edit history:
slowbro: 2010-06-07 10:17:17 pm
2010-06-07 10:11:02 pm
It's great that you're getting back into this, Sir_VG, and I highly recommend that you end this round of SS attempts with some submissions to SDA (even if you don't wind up running all the chapters).  Obviously your results so far sound exciting.

Unfortunately I've pretty much forgotten that this game exists, even though it was one of my favorite games I've ever played.  I definitely can't verify, considering my lousy memory and the number of months since I played.  Well at least my sig still remembers this game Tongue (the amazing suicide thing still cracks me up)

edit: Woops!  I'm half a month late.  I guess I don't know if you're still working on this or not Smiley
thri11ki11
2010-09-25 10:08:09 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
I hide between the cracks of the couch in the living room... in the darkness... biding my time until I have everything prepared just right...

I am awake when you are asleep, listening to the sounds from beyond as they call to me... the voices that tell me how long to farm the Lunarians' Tale for Megalixirs... whether I can save a whole second by manipulating Cat Claws in Edge's tale... how long it will take to maximize the number of Red, Blue and White Fangs in Edward's Tale... and how to manipulate a plethora of Bomb Cores in Rydia's Tale...

And now, it has come time... now the sun has risen upon the run of the Crystals tale, and as the light has shone upon it I have learned what mistakes I had made, what false pretenses I began the run under in the past... I can now say that I am fully prepared to devastate this chapter beyond all devastation and produce a speedrun that is worthy of the hallowed halls of SDA.


And the runner, with teeth gritting,
Still is sitting, still is sitting
Right before that television
He was sitting at before

And shortcuts he will be finding
As he just continues grinding
Grinding seconds off the timing
Of the game from days of yore
Grinding seconds off the timing
On that couch behind that door
From which he'll move.... nevermore!
Sir VG
Sir VG
Edit history:
Sir VG: 2010-09-25 11:34:44 am
2010-09-25 11:34:08 am
Fucking Weeaboo
Hey, you finally got the final chapter done?  Awesome!  Can't wait to watch. Smiley


And I'm still waiting on hearing if my runs got approved. >_>;;
thri11ki11
2010-09-25 12:06:51 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Well, not done per se, but the preparation took far longer than the actual run will. I've started it (it's segmented, big surprise), so hopefully I'll get some good lucky RNG manipulations. I'm going to add up the hours of preparation at some point so that I can give all an idea of just how long I ground the individual tales before I was ready to proceed with this bastard.
thri11ki11
2010-09-25 09:08:27 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Update:

I've completed "The Crystals" tale (I believe that the second tale in the final DLC was supposed to be called "The Planet Eater" but they messed up on the title screens). My time so far has clocked in at 0:25 in 9 segments.

I will now begin working on "The Planet Eater."
thri11ki11
2010-09-26 12:39:00 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
An unfortunate turn of events, and a bit of statistical information for those interested...

As I began working on "The Planet Eater," (which I will from now on refer to as "PE") I realized that I did not have enough Sprint Rings. I had forgotten that I couldn't de-equip them from Golbez and Rydia due to their involvement in the Mysterious Girl fight at the end of "The Crystals," and that if I wanted them for my PE party I was going to have to add Golbez and Rydia, de-equip them, and replace them with other party members. So....

I had to go back to Rydia's Tale and farm the Challenge Dungeon 20 more times in order to get 2 more Sprint Rings. And now I have to start over.

But, on the bright side of things, I plan on doing some leisurely testing this time around. I created separate save files from my "maxed out" ones, ones from which to import the final data. These are essentially stripped down versions of the maxed out files, with all of the extraneous items and equipment having been sold to keep the inventory manageable. That way if I made a calculation error (as I did with the Sprint Rings), I could go back to the original file and make the adjustments. The good thing is, if during my testing I get most of the way through PE and realize, for example, "Gee, I wish I hadn't sold all of my Remedies..." I don't have to go through the whole speedrun again perfectly... which is the way I should have done it in the first place.

For the statistics whores around here (like myself), I calculated the total time that I have spent preparing for this run.

Ceodore/Kain's Tale: 12:56
Rydia's Tale: 46:41 (20:30 the first time, then I had to redo in 26:11 once I realized that I had to get rid of the dolls)
Yang's Tale: 7:17
Palom's Tale: 15:16
Edge's Tale: 39:37 (24:39 the first time, then I had to redo in 14:58 once I realized that I had to get rid of the subordinates)
Porom's Tale: 7:52
Edward's Tale: 22:52
Lunarian's Tale: 31:15
For a grand total of: 7 days, 15 hours and 46 minutes.

I maxed out every tale because I wanted to ensure that I wasn't going to miss any combination when I started the final tale; for instance if I discovered a Band that worked particularly well, or that one character produced a more favorable fight pattern. Now I realize that I wasted so much time doing this. I didn't have to max out Palom and Porom's Tales at all: the only things I bring into the final chapter are the Rapid Ring from Porom's Tale (which is one of the final treasures from the Challenge Dungeon) and the Mystic Veil from Palom's Tale (which is in a chest in the Challenge Dungeon... meaning I didn't even have to finish his dungeon more than ONCE!). I didn't need to collect Silver Apples for Harley in Edward's Tale (only Edward is used in the final chapter). Also, I discovered a Silver Apple drop in the Lunarians' Tale very late. I had been farming Megalixirs there, and I found a drop that I could have taken advantage of every time I went through the Challenge Dungeon. I wouldn't have farmed for as many Megalixirs as I had, but I figured what the hell, if I have to go through for the Silver Apples anyway...

So that about does it for now. I'll probably post again once I finish my new and improved dry run.

Oh, and slowbro, if you're reading this... CONGRATULATIONS! I'm so happy your World Molder run is FINALLY up on the site!
Now we just have to wait for VG's single segment runs...
thri11ki11
thri11ki11
Edit history:
thri11ki11: 2010-10-02 03:38:30 am
thri11ki11: 2010-10-02 03:36:52 am
2010-10-02 03:35:26 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
So I've tested the final chapter quite extensively now. I have realized that though it is possible to manipulate the RNG, there are new factors to take into account. Equipment plays more of a part; in the earlier chapters it made differences in the combat, but now it makes more of an impact on what encounters you get. However, the biggest new variable is timing. If you pause too long in one spot (even a fraction of a second) it changes the encounters that you face and/or the patterns that the enemies follow in encounters. You have to find a combination that works, and then repeat it EXACTLY, including the number of pauses that you make when maneuvering by running into walls, etc. The biggest thing that sucks is when you find a perfect manipulation and then realize that you must have stopped at a certain point that you don't remember, and you can't replicate it.

I tried a few configurations and the best time I was able to get on the whole thing was 2:29, I think. It takes between 20-25 minutes for the last segment alone; fighting the Creator's four forms and going through all of the escape sequences, then the long finale and credits suck up a huge amount of time. My goal is to get the run under 2:20 but I don't know if it's possible unless I find some really good boss manipulations and find a way to cut out almost all encounters (which is hard in the lower parts of the Depths).

I redid the Crystals due to my equipment error and got the same time, but I skipped the free save between chapters, saving instead on the Lunar Whale with my final party. The time on the file right now is 0:28, unofficially 0:28:46.

Based on my test runs, I'm thinking this thing will take no more than 44 segments. The breakdown is:

9 Segments for The Crystals
11 Segments for Lunar Subteranne
24 Segments for The Depths
thri11ki11
2010-10-05 10:40:37 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Another update on The Planet Eater:

Turns out I'm extending the number of segments to at least 45. I had to add an extra segment between the Lunar Subteranne and the Depths, to switch out party members, heal, and get the Adamant equipment.

I just finished Segment 26, which for reference's sake is just after I fight Tiamat on Depths B5 (which is the last of the Final Fantasy 1 bosses I fight). My current running time is 0:56. I'm very happy with this, especially considering in my test runs I was clocking in at 1:05 on Depths B1.

So I'm ready to dive down to B8 and fight the Final Fantasy 2 bosses. I'll give another update soon.
slowbro
slowbro
Edit history:
slowbro: 2010-10-06 10:00:04 am
2010-10-06 09:59:26 am
Wow, you don't do a job halfway Smiley  You've done a lot of work for this run.

Thanks for the congrats.  Yeah, I've been clicking on the Needs Verification forum a lot watching for VG's TAY runs too.
thri11ki11
2010-10-07 06:38:17 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Segment 32 is in the books, which brings me down to Depths B12 (where you fight the Final Fantasy 3 bosses). My time now is 1:05. The funny thing is that I'm this far into this run and it still isn't even as long as my Ceodore/Kain's Tale run.

I'm going to be going back to 44 segments, because I forgot that when you finish the FF3 floor, you have to run to Depths B14 and beat Gilgamesh in order to save. My original plan was to save, fight Gilgamesh, and save again, but since the boss sits on the save spot that's impossible. This means I've only got 12 segments left!
thri11ki11
thri11ki11
Edit history:
thri11ki11: 2010-10-10 10:47:02 pm
2010-10-10 02:25:05 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Just finished Segment 38. I'm on Depths B15 (the Final Fantasy 6 floor). The time is 1:17.

My plan is to tackle the Ghost Train first. The decision that I have to make is whether or not I want to do Ultros in the same segment. There's a nice little passage that leads from the train right to him. The problem with this is that it becomes harder to manipulate out battles... in my original strategy I would go from save->Train->save, then save->Ultros->save, meaning four areas to manipulate out combat, but broken up into two pieces, which isn't so bad. With this new strategy, it would be save->Train->Ultros->save, meaning only three areas to manipulate, but I'd have to do them all in one segment. Discovering how long to run around/get into fights to manipulate encounters out of a one boss segment is difficult enough. Perhaps a two boss segment is a bit much. If I decide to go with it, I have a feeling I won't be posting back here for a long time.

Regardless, after Ultros I just have to run to Depths B20, fight Bahamut, and then go to the Creator. If I can finish Ghost Train, Ultros, and Bahamut in 13 minutes, perhaps sub 2 hours may not be impossible, after all!

*edit* Just finished Ghost Train and Ultros. Found a way to do them in the same segment so I could take that shortcut, and there's no battles. Going from the save to the Train and Ultros and back took me 3:40, so my total time now is 1:20. This gives me 10 minutes to get to and kill Bahamut, and if I can do that, then I'm 99% sure I'll get sub 2 hours.
Sir VG
2010-10-11 12:13:06 am
Fucking Weeaboo
Awesome.  Keep it up!
thri11ki11
2010-10-13 12:13:41 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Thanks VG, it's very nice to have encouragement.

Segment 41 is complete. Turns out she'll be 42 segments long, because I'm at the final save before the Creator. The time now is 1:26. I should make sub 2 hours comfortably. Perhaps I should shoot for 1:55. I'm not sure, because I haven't tried a truly optimized fight against the Creator yet.

I'm going to watch my entire run at some point and take notes, which I guess I should have been doing all along. I also want to count how many random encounters I face. I'm pretty sure it's under a half-dozen.
thri11ki11
2010-10-14 05:07:20 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Well, now the game decides it wants to be difficult.

The Creator is going to take some time to figure out, mainly because there is NO pattern to what happens during the fight. Well, there IS a pattern, but it changes practically by the millisecond unless you input everything at exactly the right time.

I tried all four fights several times and came up with results that were different each time. Since I wasn't certain whether or not I had picked slightly different commands, I decided to try an experiment.

I tried the first three fights two separate times, and afterward I watched the recording and marked down actions and damages. Right away during the first form (the ? ? ? thing that doesn't fight back) twice, I found that the first five commands resulted in the same damage, but from then on the damage changed. This altered events from that point on in the next fights.

I wouldn't say this was a big problem, especially for the first three forms because the strategy is the same regardless of what the Creator does. It's the LAST form that's going to be a bitch.

As anyone knows who has finished this, approximately every 40,000 HP that the Creator loses, it uses its Transform ability, which changes its weakness. If you can find the weakness and, for instance, use a Red Fang if the weakness is Fire, you deal 9999 damage if your party member is in full health (and you have 9999 HP, of course). As one could imagine, this is an extremely fast way to suck away his energy. If the results of the fights were replicable, I could just figure out what commands get him to change his weakness to what element, and the fight would be over before it started.

Since the results are more random, I end up with the problem of healing the Creator if I use the wrong Fang (each incorrect choice gives him approximately 5,000 HP, and wastes valuable time). After a couple of tries I might get the weakness, but if it's not Fire, Ice or Lightning, I have to resort to using Bands, which are slower but deal the most damage next to the Fangs.

My choice is, do I use the Bands exclusively, thereby avoiding healing the Creator, yet giving up the speed and maximum damage yield of the Fangs? Or do I keep trying, hoping that I get a good combination of weaknesses? Remember, the weaknesses can be more than just Fire, Ice, and Lightning, so the chances aren't 1 in 3 that I'll get the weakness on the first try, it's more like 1 in 8 or so, and about a 5 in 8 chance that there won't be a weakness I can exploit at all.
Sir VG
2010-10-14 05:38:58 pm
Fucking Weeaboo
How about using a weak black magic spell instead of a fang to determine weakness?  It should be a very quick cast and even if wrong, shouldn't heal for much HP.
thri11ki11
2010-10-14 08:31:20 pm
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
That's a great idea, I hadn't thought of that. It's amazing how one-dimensional this run has become. The only spellcaster I have though is Edge Tongue
I still wish I could find a way to manipulate the bastard...
Sir VG
2010-10-14 08:35:22 pm
Fucking Weeaboo
Well, you should have his blitzes which are elemental and should be quite fast, no?
thri11ki11
2010-10-15 03:40:25 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Yeah, he's got the right spells, but.... he's so under-leveled. If I try something like Shock or Flame, it's a little faster but it does 0 damage, which doesn't give me any information either way. I have to use something like Blitz or Blast, and those take quite a bit longer to charge up.
thri11ki11
2010-10-18 11:03:21 am
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Shit x 42.

I was just fighting the Creator's final form, and I wanted to see if his actions would denote any particular weakness; I noticed once that he used Thundaga on me when he was weak against Blue Fangs.

So I just sat around every time he used Transform, popped him with the three Fangs, then waited for him and did wimpy attacks to see what he would do. Then I did something I almost regret that I did.

I had Edge throw a Defender sword at him.

And I was like WOW! That did over 5000 damage!
Too bad I didn't have more of those....
Wait, I did. But I got rid of them all to free up inventory space before I went into the Crystals.

You see, Edge is my utility character. Where Yang & Ursula have their Band that does about 6000-7500 points of damage, and Ceodore & Kain have their Band that does about 7500-9500 damage, Edge is the odd man out, so he uses Megalixirs. His attack only does about 1200 so I skip his turn because it's not time effective to strike with him, unless I'm using Fangs. And now he has an attack that may make him worth using.

After thinking about it for a moment, I realize that against enemies that aren't weak against Fangs, the Fangs still do about 5000 HP damage, so having a slew of Defenders won't really benefit me that much after all. HOWEVER, I have been skipping all of the treasures that you pick up after defeating the Bosses in the Planet Eater tale. If any of those would be throwable, and would deal significant damage (more than, say, 6000 damage) against the Creator, I may have to start over... at least the Planet Eater tale, anyway...

So I guess at least I'm using my last file to run back and pick up all the treasures to see which ones work against the Creator in any useful capacity.

Damn my incomplete testing methods.