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My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: Nay

John 'chessjerk' Kearsley IV's run with deaths

Verifier Responses

Quote:
Total adjusted time:  6 hours 24 minutes 18 seconds

Now for the good parts of the run:

There was little to no level grinding.  This is amazing for this game.

The Sword of Lethargy is extremely cheap.  Keeps bosses asleep and generally allows for better kills.  I never knew it worked on Necrosaro.

Some timely use of deathwarps.

Now for the bad:

Crit manipulation on the bosses was rather poor.  The only good boss fights on the game were Bakor and Necrosaro.  The runner really needed to use the Claws on Alena and go for more powerful crits.  The Stilleto Earrings didn't cut it on anybody except for Necrosaro.

The runner lost over 5 minutes doing the shop manipulation rather than segmenting the Broad Swords and Half Plate Armors.  This would be great for a single segment run but is a rather poor idea for a segmented run.

The runner should've deathwarped after Esturk.  The runner lost 4 minutes and 30 seconds here for virtually nothing and could've segmented in a King Metal Fight if he really needed EXP.

Balzack and the four Guardians definitely need to be segmented in their own right and manipulated better.

In closing:

The runner generally has a good ideas and ran the game in a good way.  But his mistakes were very costly and added up to the 15 minute to 20 minute range.  He is doing a segmented run and is trying to make it look pretty instead of going for speed which is the most important thing.  This isn't a beauty contest:  The purpose of a speed run is to get through the game in the fastest time possible, and the runner did some questionable tactics that did not achieve that.  The run is close, but unfortunately still needs some more work to pass.

In final, I am going to reject this run for now.  I do look forward though if the runner tries again.


Quote:
Audio/Video: A/V synch was fine, segments 40-46 had noticeably better A/V quality than 1-39

General comments: Run includes death abuse.  The runner planned his/her route & inventory/equipment very well and wasted very little time during equipment changes & item/spell usage due to excellent menu manipulation.  The runner has a mastery of the game mechanics and had some top-notch strategies for grinding (particularly early Chapter 5 GP grinding via selling Swords of Malice carried over from Chapter 3) and boss battles (abusing the Sword of Lethargy sleep effect is a common trick for beating bosses while underleveled; but this is the first time I've seen the Transform spell used to access buff/instant death spells to decent effect).  As my individual segment comments show, the vast majority of potential improvements involve luck-based factors that the player has little to no control over in a non-TAS run (rates for enemy encounters, run success, critical hits, status ailment & instant death rates, and party member AI actions during Chapter 5).  This is an excellent run that truly does justice to my favorite 8-bit RPG.

Individual segment comments:
1: good use of death abuse to skip one of the Izmit cave trips, wooden equipped after a battle instead of immediately after the death was probably a minor oversight
2: RNG luck definitely on runner's side - barely any battles before finding Healie
3: pretty bad luck running from battles near start of segment, Saro's Shadow boss fight went well, good flying shoes/wing of wyvern combo to avoid most end-of-chapter backtracking
4: minus Alena being put to sleep once the boss fight went very well, bad luck getting into a battle when leaving/re-entering Frenor at the end of the segment
5: lol at Brey getting a critical hit to kill himself for the death warp
6: good route planning in going to the Bazaar and talking to the soldier that advances the story, while waiting for night to fall in order to get the Thief's Key
7: some pretty good luck at both avoiding and running from battles in the Birdsong Tower
8-10: great luck both finding and beating a metal slime quickly - probably took many segment retries
11: Endor tournament went extremely well, with 2 opponents beaten quickly by critical hits and decent luck against Linguar
12: incredible luck at avoiding all battles prior to finding the chain sickle and getting a broad sword while grinding
13: I wonder if the Sword of Malice could have been gotten sooner with more retries
14: interesting strategy of using Wyvern Wings to warp from inside towns to outside
15: talked to a few people that I don't remember being necessary to advance the plot, but no real time lost
16: some difficulties running, but Laurent behaved fairly well and didn't waste very many spells
17: this segment brings back bad memories of spending hours and hours grinding for item drops to resell, before I knew about either the Broad Sword/Half-Plate delivery or the Abacus of Virtual resell trick, which the runner mixed quite well
18: making it to Orin at level 1 was quite an impressive feat!
19: good luck with the Wyvern Wing drop, some bad luck running from battles in the Aktempto mine
20: getting both the right enemy formation and tarot card draw must have taken quite a few tries
21: the Silver Tarot cards seem to be quite an effective strategy with enough luck/retries
22: taking Hero's initial armor from Nara instead of getting the freebies at the woodcutter's cabin definitely helps
23: nice casino abuse
24: couple of menu input errors when changing equipment, beating the metal slime speeds up the grinding quite a bit
25: helps that the game doesn't require you to actually visit Branca in order to teleport there
26: effective use of Expel against the Lighthouse bosses and Sword of Malice fireball ability against overworld monsters
27: good use of conveyor belts to avoid battles
28: runner obviously planned out equipment purchases in great detail
29: didn't repeat the Expel trick against the Flamers?
30: high encounter rate on Stancia island, but good luck with running
31: battle that runner starts and then runs from after getting paralyzed is a minor eyesore
32: good luck with keeping Keelon asleep for most of the battle, good menu manipulation during extensive party/equipment changes
33: I wonder if the route could have been tweaked so that the runner had enough GP to buy both the Sword of Lethargy and Stiletto Earings in segment 30, Balzack fight went well - boss didn't get any attacks in, another Alena crit or two would have helped due to her otherwise low damage
34: maybe Bakor fight could have gone faster with Use No MP tactic, to keep Cristo from wasting turns on buff/debuff spells
35-38: dead metal babbles=fast grinding
39: good luck with Cristo's instant death spells
40: excellent Esturk fight, with crits a plenty
41-42: mostly good kill rate with Cristo's death spells again
43: some difficulty running, lucky Wizard Ring drop
44: Healus spell might be more efficient way to heal after walking on damage floors
45: interesting strategy with using Transform spell to double chances for instant death against Anderoug
46: Transform/Increase combo make first phase of Necrosaro battle a breeze, decent sleep/crit rate against final phase, minor route error during epilogue

Decision: Publish this run on SDA?  But thou must!


Quote:
Verifier comments: Dragon Warrior 4

Cheating: OMG LUCK MANIPULATION...nah, nowhere near Diablo II even.
Audio: just fine.
Video: looks like it's from the same VHS Tom Votava used for The Guardian Legend. Looks extremely fuzzy and dark, worse than most things on SDA, but this is for an NES game where fine details don't matter, so I think it should be accepted anyway. Wait, it looks like that on the stat-id as well so it's just a "verifier quality" issue. Those artifacts around everything dark are definitely an encoding issue. They only show up prominently if you blow up the resolution by watching in full screen.

True to mikw's command, I will review each segment without reading the author comments. But I will still sound prophetic, because I helped plan this run. >_>

Segments 1-3
Nothing to say, these go exactly as they should.

Segment 4
Excellent tactics for speed. The only dark spot on the combat in this segment are the two surprise rounds and Cristo hitting air once, but those are easily overlooked. It's too bad there weren't more Minons, Rabidhounds and Troglodytes though.
IIRC, you don't have to chase the impostors out of the inn in Tempe. This might be a small error in the run, I guess.
I wonder if there's a doujin about May.

Segment 5
lmao @ Brey's terrific blow. Accept just for that.

Segment 6
If this were done on Classic Games Done Quick or something, I would have donated $10 to have the runner collect the Gum Pod, and $20 more to have Taloon eventually Appraise it. I know that sounds lame, but it's this game's equivalent of Suplexing the Phantom Train.

Segment 7
Nice luck. That's about it. Sadly that will be ample description for over half the segments of this run.

Segments 8-10
Metal Slimes om nom

Segment 11
It's probably fewer steps to walk to the right door outside the castle, then go in...let me check on emulator.
Going right: 13 to the right, 5 more back to the left. 18
Going left: 14 to the right. Dang, it really is faster. My bad. A petty thing to check anyway.
Sampson needs more crit prevention gear. My guild raids 245 hours a week, he should come see me. By the way, for those who haven't inferred into the plot: Necrosaro is gone because he has just heard of Rosa being in trouble.

Segment 12
This shows the beginnings of just one way to do Chapter 3. It's pretty open ended. My personal favourite is still "steal Chain Sickle, imagine a fat guy with extra internal organs commit seppuku with it, sell clothes (and lunch and medicine) and run naked to Bonmalmo to buy a Wing and jailbreak the kid. While naked." As you can see, getting a Broad Sword looks a lot more streamlined than what I just described.

Segment 13
Excellent use of Wing of Wyvern at the start. Also: Naked Taloon. Yes, yes, yes.

Segment 14
TAKES DAMAGE TO SAVE TIME. TWICE. QUADRUPLE YES.

Segment 15
Excellent haggling.
Oops, talked to Princess Mia twice. I think we can all overlook that though. Heck, most people won't even realize this is a mistake. Should have talked to Laurent before talking to the king too, since he was already two steps into the inn. A possible improvement to future runs would be skipping Strom, and thus returning Tom's dog. Also, naked Taloon with a spear. *sings Hyadain's Taloon song*

Segment 16
Not exactly sure why he starts running from all the easy money that wouldn't take too long to kill. It's better to be rich and not have need of looting the treasures in this cave so you can get a head start in Chapter 5. Maybe he's been adding gold in his head and he has enough by now? Maybe he's just trying really hard to get a better time on this segment.
For some reason, the first few times I played this game, I never talked to Strom and thus never knew about hiring him. Made this cave a bit rougher.
Firing Strom and Laurent this early is not a waste of time (or overly harsh) because shop transactions are faster when Taloon is alone.

Segment 17
Day 1:
Instead of giving the Lunch to Neta to sell, he could have sold it at the weapon shop and grabbed a Morning Star. Heh.
Day 2:
lol @ Strom prowling outside, begging for work
Day 3:
Okay, there is no way a shop selling only one thing at an inflated price can be successful.
Day 4:
Good idea, buying more than 8 Abacou per day.
Day 5:
This is one of those kinds of segments that has neither planning nor execution, but is still badass.
I lost track of the days after that, because I entered an orgasmic haze upon seeing Taloon's gold total as he bought all them Swords of Malice.
Finding the Wooden Hat, Medical Herb and Wayfarer's Clothes kind of sucks...slowing everything down with prompts after all that is a bit of a disappointment, especially since nothing else in this segment is up to luck. I would have just done it one more time and kept the result.
At the end of this segment, I am left with one burning question: WHAT IS THE PLURAL OF ABACUS?!?

Segment 18
Everyone's favourite couple! Good quantity of Herbs purchased. Orin ground everybody to dust on his cheese grater abs no problem, then the sisters got naked in due time.
Possible improvement: stopping by Keeleon before tackling this cave so you can use a Wing to warp back there, but it's pretty dangerous.

Segment 19
Haha, pulling that Wing of Wyvern was amazing. Buying things in Chapter 4 can vary quite a bit and it looks like the runner has chosen a good order. Running from those Rogue Wispers was pretty awkward though.

Segment 20
Short grinding segment with excellent luck on the King Slime. But I think he could have been found faster in hills instead of plains, assuming encounters change based on terrain like Dragon Warrior 1 >_>

Segment 21
Balzack gets pwned, Keeleon pwns back. Man, if Keeleon could do that scorching gas maneuver in Chapter 5, he'd be very tough...
Oops, fumbled on the return there. (sounds like an actual football play)
I love the little fanfare at the end of this chapter.

Segment 22
CJ didn't walk on the flowers. How compassionate of her.
That minstrel in the inn is totally the mole.
No stopping at the woodsman's shack is great. I suspect he's CJ's grandfather, actually.
lol @ Monjar running away.
I actually like how CJ's information can usually be crammed onto one line, makes all the information during battle easier to process.

Segment 23
This segment actually impressed me quite a bit with how direct and fast he is at the poker table. Even on Double of Nothings, I actually take time to think about where the high card will be for some stupid reason...
Missing equipping the Feather Hat was a bit unfortunate I guess.

Segment 24
Metal Slime kill! This segment is a keeper.

Segment 25
I was a fool to not hype up the Broad Sword, its effectiveness is astounding. Hector stars in his after-school special and the segment finishes amazingly well with the bonus Metal Slime kill. The healing afterward looks silly but it's sort of needed. It's a shame all these neato enemies aren't seen anywhere else in the game but this short transient trip.
There is a Strength Seed in Aneaux you can grab, I would save it for Alena, but this is a segmented run; time is not on CJ's side, but luck is, I think it's a good call not grabbing it.
Hector's clone is creepy.

Segment 26
The Lighthouse Bengal fight goes stupendously well. The extra power of the Broad Sword was not needed at all in this case. No Metal Slimes on the way up, but they don't matter that much right now.
I have never seen Guzzle Rays before. The call for help is a disappointment but no big loss.
CJ probably could have done without the night at the inn, unless it's needed for a night/day cycle. It still wouldn't hurt to sleep after saving, unless the next segment is short and takes a billion tries.

Segment 27
It appears our runner decided not to add Brey to the team early. Seems like a good timesaver in my eyes.
Grabbing the Robe of Serenity costs a bit of time. I think the plan is to sell it  so CJ can get a Sword of Lethargy.
Love the "planting the seed" tune.
Naked Taloon makes a comeback!
The "Mara, Nara...forgot Brey...screw it" looks very silly but it's not a big time loss.

Segment 28
Mara and Nara get killed by a pair of cocks. Red Scarlet happily gets to hear their battle music one last time. Then Brey turns out to be useful instead of dead.
In Riverton, Wyoming, awesome gear is purchased. But I'm extremely puzzled by Cristo not getting a Sacred Robe. It reduces spell damage, which will be imporant versus Balzack+. More important than the meager extra defense the Iron Mask offers over the Iron Helmet.
The sailing route to Monbaraba is just awesome.

Segment 29
Magic Key is retrieved easily, then the Ewoks get subjugated and plundered. Brey is killed while in battle conveniently too. I gotta say, my favourite thing about speedrunning this game is that if you know what you're doing, your power level ramps up ridiculously fast.
Moreover
I wonder...if you put the Thief's Key in Brey's inventory, can you skip saving Cristo and Brey entirely? Or is it always manually moved to Alena's inventory? This is a pretty stupid piece of conjecture anyway, Alena and Cristo are the two most instrumental characters to the run.

Segment 30
Sailing goes well, Panon is added and so is the awesome Sword of Lethargy. No medal gear bought yet though, I guess that will be done right before Zenithian Armor stealing.

Segment 31
Santeem is the fastest departure location? I should have thought of that. Fewer encounters before getting to the boat, similar amount of steps. Skipping that medal is a good choice, if medals are going to be dropped that should be one of the first to go because it's pretty dangerous getting it.
Fighting these Necrodains is curious to me. They're tough to kill without decent weapons, as we can see, but the Sword of Lethargy's side effects save the day.
Walking back to the boat looks dumb, but it's actually necessary, if you just cast Outside at this point you will be separated from your wagon. (wait, CJ doesn't use those characters anyway, maybe it's the boat that gets stranded)

Segment 32
Ragnar goes Super Saiyan, then Keeleon explodes. When I played this game on emulator as a kid, I had hoped Ragnar would be more badass and less jovial. Panon can be kept around for Balzack+ (and even Bakor) if needed.

Segment 33
Wow. He made Balzack look way too easy. Sacred Robe was definitely not needed.
CJ and Nara in jail...I'm not sure if I should think of Ghost or V for Vendetta.

Segment 34
Equipping the Fire Claw? Probably a good idea while Alena is still a lower level.  Bakor is ridiculed easily. Cristo is just on fire, casting Upper, Stopspell and Increase with perfect effect all back to back.
The Queen's speech is evidence that sequence breaking in Dragon Warrior Quest really is the best thing ever.

Segment 35
That first Metal Babble kill was one of the best I've ever seen. Killing two more was waesome. Seeing the pack of 4 nearly made me drop my chicken.

Segments 36-38
metal babbles om nom
I don't recall Esturk being so tough but I only tried to take him down once. And I brought a Hat of Happiness too. But if this grinding is actually for Necrosaro,  then it's smarter to wait until Ragnar has the Mirror Shield.
Seeing how easy the rest of the game is, these could probably be done without, but it only adds 7-8 minutes of time anyway...

Segment 39
The first turn triple Defeat kill on the Leoanars made me very happy. Alena's Stiletto Earrings are really rocking out now too. Ragnar's last levelup there is the most ridiculous HP increase I've ever seen, but that's typical for Ragnar.
Healers for the transform? Reject this segment. >_>

Segment 40
The author mentioned getting a new DVD recorder due to an excellent run of this segment becoming corrupted, and the quality is already quite different. The colours are brighter and crisper, and the audio is EQ'd completely differently. (more high, less low)
The healing spring halfway makes me think CJ should liberally use Boom and other attacking spells. This stop might have been skippable altogether.
Alena's levelup right before Esturk looks pretty TAS. Awesome.
Everyone's damage on Esturk seems fairly low, but he still dies quickly even without the Sword of Decimation.
Only bonk sound(s) in the run right there.
If Esturk's sleeping behaviour is a problem, you could buy a Dragon Killer for CJ instead.

Segment 41
None of the Red Cyclones did a Final Atomic Buster, so I guess this segment is pretty--
OMG
A GUM POD
ACCEPT THIS RUN NOW

Segment 42
What does the Noctabat's "eerie mists" move do? Is that FendSpell? o_O
Alena gets another really hax levelup.

Segment 43
The Bellzabbles clearly became the Beelzebuzzes of DQ8. I can see why it was hard to translate. We also get to see Barack's senators and several terrible blows. I like how they're just pushing a wagon with Lucia and a pile of corpses through this cave. Skipping the Dress of Radiance and the cluster of treasures was a good choice. Finding a Wizard's Ring was quite fortunate.
Floating cristo ftw. But Staff of Jubilation-spamming Cristo just looks bad. If this is a segmented run, why wasn't that noticed in a prior attempt?
I guess this is made up for by the King Metal kill. awesome.
After the Bull Bashers fiasco I would have just had Cristo cast Healus and move on, it's almost the end of the tunnel there.
Should have turned on Offensive tactics for the Big Sloths, Cristo could have pwned them with a Defeat possibly.

Another thing I should have noticed sooner...shouldn't Ragnar go in front of CJ? He has a lot more HP, a Sword of Miracles to keep it replenished, and what I'm sure is a nearly good defense rating. He's only lacking the resistance to spells the Zenithian Shield provides.

Segment 44
I'm glad CJ decided to kill 2 bosses in each of these last two segments.
Mike, please get me slightly better verifier quality next time...I could barely tell those were trees outside of Gigademon's lair. Anyway, commentary on each miniboss:
Gigademon: No Cristo transform. That might seem surprising, but then you lose the Sword of Lethargy for doing that. The turn Gigademon stays asleep is very weird because everyone does pitiful damage, even less than if he was guarding. Healing before walking over the damage tiles is just bad form.
Infurnus Shadow: Blizzard breath? More like blizzzzzzz

Segment 45
Anderoug: Transforming into Cristo in order to use Defeat is just awesome. A great balance between fast killing and milking the Anderougs for experience.
Radimvice: Here we see the difference between the other minions' fanaticism and Radimvice's attitude of "lmao moar liek n00bosaro". And again, Healus being way faster...
Anyway, Alena's start was hilarious. The Demighouls stay out of the way after that, then Radimvice passes away peacefully in his sleep.

Segment 46
CJ gets the Zenithian Sword powered up so I can do the freezing waves thing...obviously needed in case Necrosaro's third form casts Increase. CJ is still in the front for some strange reason, and I think this is actually slowing down the run noticeably because using Healall becomes more frequent. Ragnar should be up front...
Lmao @ Cristo's Wizard Ring, just like in the DW3 run...use it once and it crumbles. Easy come, easy go!
This guy behind me says "That's the final boss? A mutated cockroach with two swords?" XD
Everyone's damage seems kind of low, but that's what it's like without the Sword of Decimation. Seems like Alena is the primary source of damage here.
The terrible sleepy blow is the best thing I've ever seen.
"flute" finishes the boss music because the triangle wave on the NES sound chip has only one usable level for volume.

Once again, I bust out a novel when a simple "accept" will suffice. This run won't be improved substantially.


Quote:
Audio, quality, and everything like that seem up to SDA standards to me.  No problems I can recall at the moment.

The route is absolutely amazing.  Even though I was able to contribute some ideas to it, I don't think I could've been able to come up with a lot of the stuff contained within the route.  I even learned a secret I never would've known about before this run came!

Execution is well done as well.  The runner definetly had considerable luck in Chapter 1 for example.

My only criticism is that it was slightly irritating that the runner beat Esturk and Necrosaro at the levels he did even though I've already proven to him that they could both be beaten at lower levels.  It wasn't easy, but they could be.

But, whatever.  Other than that, it's an A+ run in my book.

Decision: Accept


Quote:
Segments that need to be cropped:

18
19
21
22
25 is missing title screen.
43

Here are the comments (totals over fourteen pages in Wordperfect):

All right, Mike, here is verification on DW IV.  Going segment by segment, so I expect this to be long.

Segment one:

First thing, I hope this is the low quality video, 'cause it's REALLY blurry. It's hard to watch.  The DW3 video quality at low is much, much crisper.

I am confused about why he walked around so much before entering Izmit the first time.  I understand he needs to buy the Hat in the daytime and then re-enter at night.  It just seems odd.  A little slow on the menu buying the hat.  Good luck in having enough money.  Three extra steps outside when night falls.  About a second there.

Really lucky on the self death there, doing it in two turns.  YES, THIS IS A DEATH ABUSE RUN, MIKE.

Forgot to equip the hat for the first battle.  No extra damage.

Video chops before he can say "No" to continuing the quest.  If you want that, the runner will need to get it to you.  I feel it should be there, even if timing for the segment stops when the save happens.

Can't complain about how the segment is prepared.  Pretty straightforward.

Segment two:
     
One Demon Stump on the way to Healie seems fortunate after breaking the no random line.

I wonder if it would be better to attack the sizarmage before the lethal gopher in that combination.  Blaze and a built up attack is about the same damage, but the gopher wastes a turn to prepare, while the mage can still attack for damage.  Funny that Healie got the 1 dmg kill on it.

Also quite fortunate that the Healer and Demon Stumps didn't heal.  Overall, a good run through the well.

Menu error.  OH, THE HORROR.  First real noticeable one.  We'll see how many more of them there are.

NPC pain.  What a jerk!

Interesting money management at the end.  Can't say getting enough money to keep the Wooden Hat or skip the agility seed would be any faster, and obviously the runner is going to get by the tower without the hat.

Interesting.

Segment three:

Accessed the menu seemingly accidentally right at the beginning.  I might have restarted, there.

High encounter rate, early on in the tower.  Run rate fairly low, too.  I don't know the run rate.  I'll assume it's similar to DW III, so he's a bit unlucky here early on.

Scale Shield for selling purposes?  Doesn't sell for much.  Why not equip it anyway?  OK, waiting to equip it with the SoM.  Acceptable.

No bad battles afterward.  Lucky the Bantam put Healie to sleep and not Ragnar.

Cutting it close a wee bit, eh?

Can't complain about this segment nor the chapter really.  I like the route.

Segment four:

Wouldn't going north and run into some tougher enemies be a faster level up?  Fighting four Troglodytes seems much more desirable than one Kasksos Hopper.

Hesitates on the six Kaskos Hoppers.  Probably thinking whether to run or fight.  Hard to give up exp points, but being in mountains with higher encounter rates tells me that three rounds of fighting for six experience points isn't at all efficient.  Odds are you'll run in the first two rounds, so I think running is best, there.  Worse with the five hoppers.

Yeah, seeing the other encounters makes it more affirmative that running is prudent against hoppers here.

5 prank gophers is a really good encounter.  10 exp in 2 turns.

Don't ever litter the litter.  EVER.

Now, I would have thought he'd do this at level 3 since I believe it's possible to do without Upper.

An okay fight with the Chameleon Humanoid.  I do think it can be done at level 3.

Menu mistake to heal Alena?  8 HP that big a difference?

The gold check early on is odd since it doesn't seem like there's a purpose to it.

I'm not nearly as excited about this segment as chapter 1.  Still done relatively fast, but I think the route wasn't as ideal.

Segment 5:

Not really much to say.  Menus seemed a bit slow in the early part of the item shop sequence.  Short enough segment to speed it up a bit.

Segment 6:

Plot advancemnet segment.  Getting to Bazaar, triggering the king's muteness, dropping off the Golden Bracelet. 

Also gaining a level.  Nothing to note.

Segment 7:

Poor video quality makes the dark tiles in the tower look like pit tiles.

I know all about mistakes in the return menu.  Can't throw stones there.

Wow, if that metal slime could have been killed, what a segment that would have been!

Aside from that, not bad.  Two medical herbs bought.  I imagine the manipulation of the strength seed had a point, probably getting the full amount or to avoid randoms, but I think the max is three. I question the use of the strength seed there since I believe DW IV has stat caps like III, so the gain of two there will be lost in the level up segments later since the game will force balance.  I may have waited until Alena gets to the level the runner chooses to go into the tournament and then use the seeds.

Segment 8:

Metal slime encounter.  Done nicely.

Segment 9:

Metal slime encounter.  I wonder how many tries it took to get one and kill one in first encounter.  Not sure what the encounter rate for metal slimes are.

Segment 10:

Wow, first step in enemy territory.

Not that I desire to imply anything, but that's definitely an eyebrow raiser.

Segment 11:

What happened is what I expected. No comments really necessary.

Segment 12:

This is where it gets interesting for me.  How will the runner handle Chapter 3?

Going to the cave to get a chain sickle and then get a broad sword drop.  Interesting.  Can't you release the water to get to the double stairs more quickly?

Segment 13:

Ah, the shop.  Obviously the SoM is of main importance.  I haven't done the store in some time.  Wouldn't it just be faster just to say "no" when customers wanted to buy something?

Faster menus in the last couple of segments.  Nice to see.

Segment 14:

A few frames of a previous attempt at the start.  Nate needs to be made aware to crop that off for this segment should this get passed.

Hmm...two trips to an item shop in such a short span.  Was the runner going for an iron spear or just got lucky?

Now at seven in his inventory.  Iron Spear, 5 wings and one herb.  Started the segment with six inventory, used herb and wing. I'll see if he hits another item store later.  It seems like this could be streamlined a bit.

Doesn't that sign say "keep off the flowers?"  tsk tsk.  Menu error.  Two big ones so far.  I'd say that's in the "good" range.

Down to one wing, buys four more.  Something is telling me this part can be done differently and faster.  Don't have the answer for that at the moment though.

I believe he walked to Bonmalmo because he needs to use time to make it night.  I'll see in the next segment.

Segment 15:

Not sure what the moving is Endor is all about.  Is walking to the front of the inn needed for a trigger?  Seems like a waste of time.

Ah!  Seems like he jumped the gun and then remembered he had to get the letter.  Seems like this warranted a reset.

I also don't think you need to talk to the princess.  Just read the letter.

Talked to the princess again accidentally.

Don't like this segment at all.  All the randomness that's there is the no encounter walk to Endor, and that's not that uncommon.  With the mistakes this segment had, this should have been redone.

Segment 16:

Don't like the run fail then fight.  Choose one or the other, even if it is to wait for a heal.

Third menu error.  Menus seem a little slower this segment.

A few bonks going around, too.  Minor stuff, though.

I don't remember the encounter rate being so high in here.

Uh, why not just return to Endor and use the item shop there?  That was very odd.

K, why drop Strom and Laurent here and now?  I'll see next segment I hope.  This whole process could have been done faster.  Some wasted stuff.  Save first, drop the two walking out.  Saves the walk back to the shaman.  Drop stuff after resting to save the trip back into the shop.  Things like that.

Segment 17:

Ok, need to rest to get sales done.  Makes a bit more sense.

A sickening way to get money here.

Menus a lot cleaner.  It's what I expect.  Easier to do here, of course.

Did the Half Plate Armor part of the order in the middle there.  Seems a bit odd to me.  Taloon has to walk back to get more money for the Broad Swords and SoMs.  Maybe should have waited and done one more round and then do the half plate, broad sword, and SoMs afterward.

Yeah, definitely should have done the half plates later since he has to walk all the way to the item shop to get a wing when he could have done that with the half plates.

REALLY slow in using the wing.  Quite off putting.

Thought: Would skipping the order be faster?  Have to buy 7 half plates.  8400.  7 Broad Swords.  14000.  Total 22400.  Gross 60000.  Net 37600.  Could Taloon get 37600 faster by selling off more Abaci?  Taloon requires 60000 for the cave, 24500 for SoM, and 1500 for the Apron, so 86000 total (plus a few extra for wings).  Would be something to test out, for sure.

The chapter overall went ok.  I think it ends up being faster than it looks, especially with more errors here and there and a couple segments I really question.  It's still not bad, though.

Segment 18:

Chapter four should be simple, race to Orin, go to town on everything.

Segment has a reset in the first second and will need to get cropped.  MAKE A NOTE FOR NATE!

8-bit dancing, not too realistic.

Straight to Kievs without a fight.  Nice!

I imagine the two Blazeghost encounter would end many runs.

Can Nara two hit kill anything?  If not, I'd parry her too.

She did get a crit...but the time wasted attacking and getting nowhere is still more than one extra turn with Orin.

Nevermind.  She can't parry.

I understand the hesitancy to fight the three Blazeghosts.  Ended up okay with only one split.

I also understand running from the second set.

Was the unequipping necessary?  I don't think it was.

An expected segment.  No real issues.

Segment 19:

Another segment with a false start.  Very beginning needs to be cropped off.

Short on money?  Is that the reason for the two battles at the beginning.  Nice that one dropped a wing.

Oops bonk there.

To continue one, the likelihood of getting an encounter from Kievs to Haville is high enough that the two battles outside of Monbaraba seem like a waste of time.

Let's see, 44 extra gold after the scale shield.  33 gained from the two battles.  Had enough before the battles.  If money needed for wing, why did the second battle happen?

Rogue Whisper battle hurt.  Unfortunate it took a few tries to run.  Fortunate not all acted.

Self death after getting the jar.  With all the failed runs and seemingly unnecessary first two battles, this segment should have been redone.  I don't like it much at all.  Especially for a short segment.

Segment 20:

Uses the found wing.  Makes the battle for one in the last segment more bearable, except for the second battle.

An extra wing could have been bought in the time it took to find one, however.

Nothing much else to say about the segment.

Segment 21:

One more segment that needs to be cropped at the beginning.

Menu issues after Balzack because the runner was surprised at Mara being put in the front.  Not going to hold it against him since Balzack is a tough fight.

I think Chapter 4 went ok.  It's a fairly easy chapter to prepare for.  Some luck and execution things, though, make me hesitant to say I like it.

Segment 22:

Ah, the meat and potatoes of the game, now.  Let's see how the runner works with the friendly AI.

One more segment that needs to be cropped at the beginning.  How annoying!

Three tries to get the coins, not bad.

Hurrah for Blazeghost fun.  Good thing they can only use Blaze once.

Segment 23:

Ah, all Dragon Warrior runs have to have casino manipulation.  No other way around it.

Menu error with Mara equipping.  Not too bad, but not great looking, either.

Segment 24:

Too bad about the metal slime.

Menu issue right after.  Menus haven't been too bad so far.  Can't say I'd reject based off those so far.

Ah, got one on the second try.

Figured the plan was to learn Outside in the cave.

I have read that Branca is given to you on the return list without having to visit there first.

Not too bad a segment.

Segment 25:

Missing the whole intro here.  Just get the file select screen.  Maybe it can be included in somehow?

No return to Branca?  MP going to be an issue.  If it isn't below 8 for Mara I'm unhappy.

I wonder if there is any faster way to get through the Hero only fights.

Outside doesn't work in the cave?

Neat to see first encounter and win for metal slime.

Would have called TAS if the second one had gone down.

Aneaux is skipped as it should be.

Two small medals.  Simple enough to get.

Mara ended up with 17 MP, enough for a return out of Branca and an Outside (if possible) from the cave.  Loss of time there.  Should have been done.

Segment 26:

Once again, no return out of town.  I understand this one more.  The lighthouse is one tough place.  Still, if there's a lot of MP left afterward, it's a problem.

Damn Razor Winds.

Tower goes pretty well.  No real gaffes in my opinion.  Boss battle goes pretty decently as well.

Mara down to 27 MP after the battle.  Return should have been used.

Faster to discard the clothes than sell it.  I would have discarded the copper sword, too.

Trek to Soretta was fine.  Nothing to gripe about.

Segment 27:

Cave went good.

I still think selling off stuff up to a scale shield is pointless.  Takes more time to sell it than it does to drop it.

Menu error at the end for no apparent reason.

Feather hat really worth the +2 defense?

Segment 28:

No return out of Riverton?

3000 gold left.  No need to sell off all that minor stuff.

Nothing much else to say about this one.

Segment 29:

Forgot to chance to Offensive.

I think that Brey death cost time.

I can't remember is Kievs is returnable in Ch. 5.  Just checked.  It's not.  Probably going to Keeleon from Endor, then.  Is that faster than walking from the cave?

Segment 30:

Yep, from Endor.  Wasted two steps staying in the ocean to go to Haville.

Interesting that the runner does the return run now.  Getting Haville, Aktemto, Santeem, and Stancia.  Gets Panon. Sword of Lethargy for the hero.

I don't immediately exalt the route taken for this part of the run, but I can't give a better alternative right offhand, so that's as far as I'll take it at the moment.

Segment 31:

I imagine the Necrodains should have been run from.  Several turns to kill two.  Same with the two Fury Face.

We'll see where it goes with the second Sword of Miracles.  If the only use of it for the hero is Esturk, then I believe it's a waste of time.

Segment 32:

Favorite segment of the run so far, save for the small menu error. This Sword of Lethargy thing has legs. 

SoMiracles to Ragnar, ok.  I would have thought he'd get a Sword of Lethargy.  Maybe later?

Segment 33:

Balzack going down like that saddens me.

Savnuck group shows that death is always around the corner.

Return out of Gardenbur instead of after leaving?

Segment 34:

Cave is tough, I suspect many attempts were made here.

Wow, no Dragonits.  TAS right there.  Got lucky on the encounter rate, too.

Bakor is pretty easy.  Even without Stopspell he isn't too hard.  Having Cristo makes it cake.

Speaking of him, let the BEATing begin.

Something is telling me we'll never be seeing Nara's ghost again.

Leaving the castle again before returning?

Ok, what was that transferring all about?

Segment 35:

Not a bad metal babble haul.

I think one more could have gone down had Alena not parried and HP was higher.  Maybe something to improve upon.

A walking error, but nothing else of note.

Segment 36:

Eh, if all you're going for is metal babble kills, one doesn't seem sufficient.  Should be two minimum killed.

Lots of time going back and forth.

Segment 37:

That's better.  Metal babbles are easy to kill (relatively) in this game.

Segment 38:

Heh, Ragnar gets the terrific blow on the final one.  Took a bit longer to get the encounter, but not upset at this segment in the slightest.

Segment 39:

Colossus is easy if you're not going after any chests.  Only Blizags can really offer any resistance.  Most things susceptible to the Beat family, so that's all good.  I knew Fury Faces and Minidemons resist beat fairly well, so I'm surprised the runner tried it against those enemies.

Lucky to get a monster on the first try.

Segment 40:

Big trip through the Evil World, I imagine.

I think the Hero is at a high enough level that running from old Aktemto enemies is guaranteed.  I think the Viceter battle should have been run from.

Even if it's likely unneeded, the free healing is too close to pass up.

What's getting into Ragnar?  Sheesh!  Dragon Riders are nasty, though.  Always have been.  Always will be.

Esturk goes down pretty quickly.  Magic users are so unnecessary in Dragon Warrior games.

NPCs are jerks.

The group looked over leveled a bit for the Evil World.  Shouldn't be an issue since I don't think they'll be over leveled for end game stuff, and the runner isn't likely to do any more grinding.

Segment 41:

I'm surprised he didn't run from the Snowjives.

Why the hesitation after climbing each set of stairs?  Doesn't cost much time.  Just looks odd.

I'm sure the runner rejected any attempt that didn't have a gum pod drop here.

Should have gotten a Leaf of World Tree before discarding the scale shield.  Wasted time here.

Extra menu hit.

Segment 42:

I'm going to take the runner's word for it that the route in the tower is the fastest.

A little bit unlucky that the group targeted the guarding pit viper.  Can't fault the running even though it doesn't look great.

Some bonking going on in the final room.

Little else to say here.

Segment 43:

Failed attempt at beginning of copy.  First one in awhile.

Demighouls as much of a pain as I thought they'd be.

Wow, just run from the Spite Spirits.

And a King Metal goes down.  Lucky dog.

Eh...why not just fight the Bull Bashers?

Sloths immune to Beat?  Boom didn't work, either.  Maybe run from these?

Last Refuge save point does not ask you to quit the quest or not.  Should this have been handled differently?

Maybe not, since resetting starts you there, but the video stops similarly to the rest of the videos anyway, which I don't really like.

Segment 44:

Wait a minute, I thought saving at the Last Refuge and shutting the game off respawned you at Last Refuge.  I'm going to check that.

OK, it doesn't.  I was wrong there.

Video quality makes this segment hard to watch because the game is in a darker section.

Two bosses go well enough.  Nothing to say here.

Segment 45:

Strategy on the Anderougs didn't go terribly well.  I think the Hero was successful with one Defeat out of about 5 possible.  I was wondering if he'd go with a Beat strategy since I knew they were somewhat weak to it.  Maybe a redo was in order because of so many misses with Beat?

I have always wondered if Swingers have regeneration.  Seems like damage sometimes outdoes their total HP.

Sleep hit Radimvice just in time.

Segment 46:

I thought Swingers were immune to Beat?  Why use offensive?

Why fight the Guardians?  They'd be an automatic run for me.

Oops, wrong way bonk.

Hey!  A one use Wizard's Ring.  Now I don't feel so lonely.

Another route mistake.  Two so far in this segment.

Three.  Went down after running from the Duke Malistos.  Runner probably expected lots of damage from them.

Nice Necrosaro fight, though there was a change of tactics from Defensive to Defensive.

Uh...Where's the ending?  Still has control of the character and the video kicks out.  I mean, leaving the castle is where you lose control, and he's a couple steps away, but still, it looks incomplete without it.  The 20-30 seconds lost going the wrong doesn't concern me.  It's the lack of timing for the end.

Final conclusion:

So, accept or reject?  First off, it was a game other than Dragon Warrior, I'd really consider rejecting it based on video quality.  However, I talked to Mike and he said it was some test or something Nate was doing to the video, and that it's not on the runner end.  I do hope it's crisper if and when I see this again.

My biggest gripe is were the video cuts off.  I really would prefer the video to cut when the game hits black, not after the save jingle.  Lacking the true ending of the final segment is not acceptable to me either.

As for the play quality, the majority of Chapter 5 overshadows any issues with Chapters 2-4.  The strategy is, when you think about it, pretty simple, and the runner executes it well enough.  Enough that especially since the game does not have a run up on SDA, this seems like a worthy first run, so it should be acceptable.


Quote:
me: I"m just going to post dw4 results without
me: your response
Verifier: Yeah sorry I would have given it an accept anyway
Verifier: well planned with some execution mehs that could have been smoothed out with a less consumable recording method
Verifier: there's some segments with bad cuts though so they should get looked at a bit
Verifier: I can tell you which ones if you need me to
me: anothe rverifier already did that
me: he said they're all about a second or less
Verifier: yeah not very severe
Verifier: but should be fixed
Verifier: also the credits were missing which just bugs me on principle but certainly isn't a real problem


Decision: Accept

Reason: I'd put in some really bad olde English line, but it would make everyone, including me, cringe.
Thread title:  
Haaaa. I was going to give this a 'Has some problems that would be nice if they were fixed' Accept, but the amount of research I wanted to do was, roughly, rerun the game and test some theories out, re: what I thought *might* be speedups. School got in the way, though. I was going to be on break next week, funny enough.
Sorry for taking so long, glad to see it got accepted anyway.
Edit history:
chessjerk: 2010-07-27 10:46:00 pm
Thanks to the verifiers, even the rejecting one. I will peruse the comments and come up with some responses in a bit.

EDIT: And here they are! It feels like I'm verifying the verification comments! Smiley

Comments on comments:

Verifier 1:

I agree that I should have death-warped after getting the Gas Canister but disagree with the time lost in Chapter 3. I fail to see how it is possible to manipulate drops and still save time when you have to save after every success.

Verifier 2:

My new DVD recorder is most likely the reason for the high quality in the late segments.

Quote:
29: didn't repeat the Expel trick against the Flamers?


Hmmm, I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a good idea.

Quote:
33: I wonder if the route could have been tweaked so that the runner had enough GP to buy both the Sword of Lethargy and Stiletto Earings in segment 30, Balzack fight went well - boss didn't get any attacks in, another Alena crit or two would have helped due to her otherwise low damage


I don’t think so, since I sell everything useless that I have just to get the Sword of Lethargy.

Quote:
34: maybe Bakor fight could have gone faster with Use No MP tactic, to keep Cristo from wasting turns on buff/debuff spells


Possibly, but the extra defense sure helps until I can get him to sleep and avoids any random deaths that might happen should Bakor decide to focus on one character, especially after building up strength.

Quote:
43: some difficulty running, lucky Wizard Ring drop


Mental note for my next try (if there is one): Buy a Wizard Ring at the casino at the beginning of Chapter 5.

Verifier 3:

Quote:
IIRC, you don't have to chase the impostors out of the inn in Tempe. This might be a small error in the run, I guess.


You are correct. It is a small error I didn’t discover until it was too late to fix it.

Quote:
Should have talked to Laurent before talking to the king too, since he was already two steps into the inn. A possible improvement to future runs would be skipping Strom, and thus returning Tom's dog.


Good idea about talking to Laurent earlier.

I’m pretty sure you need to give Tov back to get either Strom or Laurent, can’t remember for sure. I really can’t imagine going through the cave without Strom as a meat shield.

Quote:
Not exactly sure why he starts running from all the easy money that wouldn't take too long to kill. It's better to be rich and not have need of looting the treasures in this cave so you can get a head start in Chapter 5. Maybe he's been adding gold in his head and he has enough by now? Maybe he's just trying really hard to get a better time on this segment.


Actually, the main problem I had in my attempts at the cave was Laurent blowing all of his MP before I got anywhere near the Statuette. Once I got the early Half Plate drop, I started running to conserve his MP for later.

Quote:
Good idea, buying more than 8 Abacou per day.


Abacuses?

Quote:
Possible improvement: stopping by Keeleon before tackling this cave so you can use a Wing to warp back there, but it's pretty dangerous.


So dangerous that I was never able to pull it off at level 1.

Quote:
But I'm extremely puzzled by Cristo not getting a Sacred Robe. It reduces spell damage, which will be imporant versus Balzack+. More important than the meager extra defense the Iron Mask offers over the Iron Helmet.


Cristo did get a Sacred Robe. Maybe if I get the Helmet I can get Stiletto Earrings faster? Hmmm….

Quote:
I wonder...if you put the Thief's Key in Brey's inventory, can you skip saving Cristo and Brey entirely? Or is it always manually moved to Alena's inventory? This is a pretty stupid piece of conjecture anyway, Alena and Cristo are the two most instrumental characters to the run.


The Thief Key is always moved to Alena to prevent you from skipping the Padequia Seed mini-quest. Although I wouldn’t want to skip it anyway…

Quote:
Walking back to the boat looks dumb, but it's actually necessary, if you just cast Outside at this point you will be separated from your wagon. (wait, CJ doesn't use those characters anyway, maybe it's the boat that gets stranded)


Actually, I do need the dead characters since they have some of my Small Medals on their corpses.

Quote:
I don't recall Esturk being so tough but I only tried to take him down once. And I brought a Hat of Happiness too. But if this grinding is actually for Necrosaro,  then it's smarter to wait until Ragnar has the Mirror Shield.
Seeing how easy the rest of the game is, these could probably be done without, but it only adds 7-8 minutes of time anyway...


It was a tough decision, but I preferred to have the levels (and HealAll) now, rather than grind at the end.

Quote:
What does the Noctabat's "eerie mists" move do? Is that FendSpell?


From what I can tell, it seals everyone’s magic spells, forcing everyone to fight physically.

Quote:
But Staff of Jubilation-spamming Cristo just looks bad. If this is a segmented run, why wasn't that noticed in a prior attempt?


He so rarely used it that I didn’t think twice about throwing it away. Plus, it did use it once (successfully!) on Esturk in a failed attempt, so I think it is more useful than it may seem.

Quote:
Another thing I should have noticed sooner...shouldn't Ragnar go in front of CJ? He has a lot more HP, a Sword of Miracles to keep it replenished, and what I'm sure is a nearly good defense rating. He's only lacking the resistance to spells the Zenithian Shield provides.


That’s another good idea. The problem with depending on the Sword of Miracles for healing is that it doesn’t provide healing if Ragnar kills the target, which happens quite frequently with his power.

Verifier 4:

If I do revisit this run in the future, I will test some lower level attempts and see how they go.

Verifier 5:

Quote:
Wouldn't going north and run into some tougher enemies be a faster level up?  Fighting four Troglodytes seems much more desirable than one Kasksos Hopper.

Hesitates on the six Kaskos Hoppers.  Probably thinking whether to run or fight.  Hard to give up exp points, but being in mountains with higher encounter rates tells me that three rounds of fighting for six experience points isn't at all efficient.  Odds are you'll run in the first two rounds, so I think running is best, there.  Worse with the five hoppers.


I agree that my leveling plan could definitely use some improvement.

Quote:
Now, I would have thought he'd do this at level 3 since I believe it's possible to do without Upper.

An okay fight with the Chameleon Humanoid.  I do think it can be done at level 3.


I was never able to pull it off, especially after spending 15 minutes beforehand grinding. Plus, I need the extra gold anyway in order to buy Alena Chain Mail in a timely fashion without wasting gold in the upcoming death abuse.

Quote:
I imagine the manipulation of the strength seed had a point, probably getting the full amount or to avoid randoms, but I think the max is three. I question the use of the strength seed there since I believe DW IV has stat caps like III, so the gain of two there will be lost in the level up segments later since the game will force balance.  I may have waited until Alena gets to the level the runner chooses to go into the tournament and then use the seeds.


Is this true? If so, then I definitely should have waited to use them.

Quote:
Can't you release the water to get to the double stairs more quickly?


No, since you waste time in the menu to hit the switch and the water doesn’t move you towards the stairs any faster than walking does.

Quote:
Wouldn't it just be faster just to say "no" when customers wanted to buy something?


No, since there are only certain points in the conversation where “no” will end the transaction immediately, and that isn’t one of them.

Quote:
Hmm...two trips to an item shop in such a short span.  Was the runner going for an iron spear or just got lucky?

Now at seven in his inventory.  Iron Spear, 5 wings and one herb.  Started the segment with six inventory, used herb and wing. I'll see if he hits another item store later.  It seems like this could be streamlined a bit.


Just lucky on the spear drop. And yes, the item shop trips were not optimized.

Quote:
Not sure what the moving is Endor is all about.  Is walking to the front of the inn needed for a trigger?  Seems like a waste of time.


It was a very bad mistake, as is most of this segment. It should’ve been re-done.

Quote:
Uh, why not just return to Endor and use the item shop there?  That was very odd.


In previous attempts, I had needed to visit the armor seller for some extra gold to get the 10,000 needed. In this attempt, I didn’t, which makes the trip to Bonmalmo quite unnecessary.

Quote:
Thought: Would skipping the order be faster?  Have to buy 7 half plates.  8400.  7 Broad Swords.  14000.  Total 22400.  Gross 60000.  Net 37600.  Could Taloon get 37600 faster by selling off more Abaci?  Taloon requires 60000 for the cave, 24500 for SoM, and 1500 for the Apron, so 86000 total (plus a few extra for wings).  Would be something to test out, for sure.


Another interesting idea. I’d have to test that myself.

Quote:
Short on money?  Is that the reason for the two battles at the beginning.  Nice that one dropped a wing.


Actually, I ended up 9 short of a Half Plate at the end of the chapter, so it actually does make a small difference.

Quote:
Outside doesn't work in the cave?


That’s correct.

Quote:
SoMiracles to Ragnar, ok.  I would have thought he'd get a Sword of Lethargy.  Maybe later?


Ragnar is incredibly inept with the Sword of Lethargy, as he too often “uses” it for Sleepmore when he shouldn’t ever do that.

Quote:
Return out of Gardenbur instead of after leaving?


All of the previous instances where you mentioned that I didn’t use Return and should have are correct, but here you can’t, since the roof of Gardenbur prevents the usage of Return when inside the castle.

Quote:
Ok, what was that transferring all about?


Mostly to get items with special effects in battle away from people who are too dumb to realize that they never work on Metal Babbles.

Quote:
I think the Hero is at a high enough level that running from old Aktemto enemies is guaranteed.  I think the Viceter battle should have been run from.


I have no idea how the escape rate is calculated in this game. Is it based on relative level?

Quote:
Should have gotten a Leaf of World Tree before discarding the scale shield.  Wasted time here.


Yup, I messed that up.

Quote:
Strategy on the Anderougs didn't go terribly well.  I think the Hero was successful with one Defeat out of about 5 possible.  I was wondering if he'd go with a Beat strategy since I knew they were somewhat weak to it.  Maybe a redo was in order because of so many misses with Beat?


This was the best of quite a few tries against the Anderougs. It could be better, though.

Quote:
I thought Swingers were immune to Beat?  Why use offensive?


They aren’t immune to Beat, as far as I know.
Quote from chessjerk:
Thanks to the verifiers, even the rejecting one. I will peruse the comments and come up with some responses in a bit.

EDIT: And here they are! It feels like I'm verifying the verification comments! Smiley

Comments on comments:

Verifier 1:

I agree that I should have death-warped after getting the Gas Canister but disagree with the time lost in Chapter 3. I fail to see how it is possible to manipulate drops and still save time when you have to save after every success.


I was the rejecting person, just wanted to say a few things:

1.  Loved the Sword of Lethargy.  That, the omission of items, and Metal Babble manipulation really take time off of where I was (about 10 hours total)

2.  Why did you use the Stilleto Earrings against Balzack in Chapter 5?  Your Attack score wasn't high enough at that point, and the Claws still do a good amount of crits?  It worked better later on, but at that point your usage of them was questionable considering you were only doing 1-2 damage most of the fight.

3.  The Shop thing is probably the most effective and easiest way to get money, but if you're doing a segmented run, why didn't you segment all the drops into one apiece?  This would've for sure saved time and I know it looks TAS-y, but you've got to do it on segmented runs.

4.  Why did you take the Guardian battles in twos in Necrosaro's world?  Your manipulation of crits doing this wasn't very effective and I think every boss fight should've got its own segment to speed things up.

5.  The Gas Canister lack of deathwarp hurt.  No questions asked on that.

In all, the run wasn't terrible horrible, don't get me wrong, but I just feel there is about 15 minutes of improvement that could go into this before you get to serious luck and impossibility from everything that I saw.  But I will say this, the game is damn hard, and I give you credit for getting this down as far as you got it.  Despite how I feel, sometimes a run has to go up and it has to be beaten down by someone, I can live with that.

Maybe I just got expectations hanging with PJ all the time......

-James
Quote:
2.  Why did you use the Stilleto Earrings against Balzack in Chapter 5?  Your Attack score wasn't high enough at that point, and the Claws still do a good amount of crits?  It worked better later on, but at that point your usage of them was questionable considering you were only doing 1-2 damage most of the fight.


My main thought process was that her damage with the Iron Claw isn't a whole lot better than with the Earrings (about 25-30 damage on one hit vs. 4-6 damage per hit for two hits), and at least with the Earrings I get twice as many chances at a critical hit.

Quote:
3.  The Shop thing is probably the most effective and easiest way to get money, but if you're doing a segmented run, why didn't you segment all the drops into one apiece?  This would've for sure saved time and I know it looks TAS-y, but you've got to do it on segmented runs.


I am still nowhere near convinced of the possibility of this method saving any time. Here's how the math works for me:

I need 7 Broad Swords and 7 Half Plates for the King. I need 18 Broad Swords (which sell for 18*1,500=27,000) in order to buy 7 Swords of Malice (7*3,500=24,500) and 1 Iron Apron (1,500) and whatever Wings I need. Therefore I need to get 32 item drops.

Segment 17 is currently 20:48 long. Let's say approximately 16:00 of that is dedicated to getting the money and items and the rest is getting the Swords of Malice, delivering the gold to the old man, etc. Therefore, in order to just equal my time, each of the 32 segments dedicated to item drops cannot be longer than 30 seconds. I would have to walk away from the shaman, get into an encounter, win on the first hit, pray for the correct drop, then run back to the shaman and save. Not to mention that every 7 battles, I need to dispose of those items somehow, due to inventory space.

Am I missing anything? Trust me, I do appreciate your input here, since the math just doesn't make any sense from what you are suggesting.

Quote:
4.  Why did you take the Guardian battles in twos in Necrosaro's world?  Your manipulation of crits doing this wasn't very effective and I think every boss fight should've got its own segment to speed things up.


Yes, you're probably right.

Quote:
5.  The Gas Canister lack of deathwarp hurt.  No questions asked on that.


None at all.
Looking forward to watching this. Maybe we can get every game in the series on SDA eventually. What's the Ultima Garden time?
Quote from chessjerk:

Quote:
3.  The Shop thing is probably the most effective and easiest way to get money, but if you're doing a segmented run, why didn't you segment all the drops into one apiece?  This would've for sure saved time and I know it looks TAS-y, but you've got to do it on segmented runs.


I am still nowhere near convinced of the possibility of this method saving any time. Here's how the math works for me:

I need 7 Broad Swords and 7 Half Plates for the King. I need 18 Broad Swords (which sell for 18*1,500=27,000) in order to buy 7 Swords of Malice (7*3,500=24,500) and 1 Iron Apron (1,500) and whatever Wings I need. Therefore I need to get 32 item drops.

Segment 17 is currently 20:48 long. Let's say approximately 16:00 of that is dedicated to getting the money and items and the rest is getting the Swords of Malice, delivering the gold to the old man, etc. Therefore, in order to just equal my time, each of the 32 segments dedicated to item drops cannot be longer than 30 seconds. I would have to walk away from the shaman, get into an encounter, win on the first hit, pray for the correct drop, then run back to the shaman and save. Not to mention that every 7 battles, I need to dispose of those items somehow, due to inventory space.

Am I missing anything? Trust me, I do appreciate your input here, since the math just doesn't make any sense from what you are suggesting.


Maybe I'm wrong (I definitely need to get an emulator and totally test this out since the battery in my cart died), but it seemed very awkwardly and it just seemed slow.  TRUST ME, I know how much of a pain-in-the-ass Chapter 3 is and it's very difficult to speed run, but there's just got to be a better way to do this.

It was the weakest part of the run next to the major boss fight mistakes/lack of deathwarp stuff, but maybe there just isn't a better way.  It definitely needs to be talked about more and maybe put back on the drawing board completely in general.  I'll look into this more personally when I get the time and equipment to do so.

-James
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
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I'm sure the runner rejected any attempt that didn't have a gum pod drop here.


I know, right?! Verifier 3 sure was happy about that >_>

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4.  Why did you take the Guardian battles in twos in Necrosaro's world?  Your manipulation of crits doing this wasn't very effective and I think every boss fight should've got its own segment to speed things up.

Yes, you're probably right.


Disagree. It was me who suggested doing the barrier guardians in pairs to begin with because I don't think the time saved by a few criticals makes up for warping back to Last Refuge, going through all the save dialogue, and walking back out for the next boss. The only way to be sure is to time a few runs though, isn't it? I left some savestates in the discussion topic but they're nothing like CJ's route...
My feelings on The Demon Rush
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Looking forward to watching this. Maybe we can get every game in the series on SDA eventually. What's the Ultima Garden time?


Actually, there is no Ultima Garden time for this game, only for the Playstation and DS versions.
Highly Evolved
Quote from mikwuyma:
Quote from scaryice:
Looking forward to watching this. Maybe we can get every game in the series on SDA eventually. What's the Ultima Garden time?


Actually, there is no Ultima Garden time for this game, only for the Playstation and DS versions.


It says there's an RTA for 6:31.

http://ultimagarden.net/dq_rta.html

http://www.geocities.jp/pon_dq/dq4rta.html
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Also Mike, there is no faux old English in DW4. Shame on you.
Not a walrus
Quote from ShinerCCC:
Also Mike, there is no faux old English in DW4. Shame on you.


The DS version makes up for this by giving nearly everybody horribly stereotypical "accents".
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Yeah, I absolutely hate the Chrono Cross-isms too. Give me back my overtly dark localization, NoA!
Highly Evolved
Pfft.  One verifier complains about writing a novel and my comments are twice as long.  It's why I'm verifier 5 and not verifier 2.


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Verifier 5:

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Wouldn't going north and run into some tougher enemies be a faster level up?  Fighting four Troglodytes seems much more desirable than one Kasksos Hopper.

Hesitates on the six Kaskos Hoppers.  Probably thinking whether to run or fight.  Hard to give up exp points, but being in mountains with higher encounter rates tells me that three rounds of fighting for six experience points isn't at all efficient.  Odds are you'll run in the first two rounds, so I think running is best, there.  Worse with the five hoppers.


I agree that my leveling plan could definitely use some improvement.

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Now, I would have thought he'd do this at level 3 since I believe it's possible to do without Upper.

An okay fight with the Chameleon Humanoid.  I do think it can be done at level 3.


I was never able to pull it off, especially after spending 15 minutes beforehand grinding. Plus, I need the extra gold anyway in order to buy Alena Chain Mail in a timely fashion without wasting gold in the upcoming death abuse.


The whole of the beginning of Chapter 2 looks slow, and it's not because of the grinding.  After the niceness of Chapter 1, the opening seemed less than ideal.  Getting the mail is understandable. 

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I imagine the manipulation of the strength seed had a point, probably getting the full amount or to avoid randoms, but I think the max is three. I question the use of the strength seed there since I believe DW IV has stat caps like III, so the gain of two there will be lost in the level up segments later since the game will force balance.  I may have waited until Alena gets to the level the runner chooses to go into the tournament and then use the seeds.


Is this true? If so, then I definitely should have waited to use them.


Well, as I mentioned, if IV is anything like III, then yes, using the strength seed when you did is possibly a
waste of time.

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Can't you release the water to get to the double stairs more quickly?


No, since you waste time in the menu to hit the switch and the water doesn’t move you towards the stairs any faster than walking does.

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Wouldn't it just be faster just to say "no" when customers wanted to buy something?


No, since there are only certain points in the conversation where “no” will end the transaction immediately, and that isn’t one of them.


Observational stuff I didn't remember exactly.

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Hmm...two trips to an item shop in such a short span.  Was the runner going for an iron spear or just got lucky?

Now at seven in his inventory.  Iron Spear, 5 wings and one herb.  Started the segment with six inventory, used herb and wing. I'll see if he hits another item store later.  It seems like this could be streamlined a bit.


Just lucky on the spear drop. And yes, the item shop trips were not optimized.


I think our early chapter three is a good baseline to find out what is absolutely ideal here.  It's a start.

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Not sure what the moving is Endor is all about.  Is walking to the front of the inn needed for a trigger?  Seems like a waste of time.


It was a very bad mistake, as is most of this segment. It should’ve been re-done.


If I considered one bad apple as ruining the barrel, than the whole run could have been rejected.  The shortness of the segments is what really sort of annoyed me about this particular error.  A thirty minute segment?  It still looks bad.  A five minute segment?  Easy redo.  Especially when there's little randomness involved.  My thirty second mistake in segment 11 in my Dragon Warrior run in a thirty minute segment had me agonizing over whether to redo it or not and I was within seconds of my best time ever on that segment anyway.

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Uh, why not just return to Endor and use the item shop there?  That was very odd.


In previous attempts, I had needed to visit the armor seller for some extra gold to get the 10,000 needed. In this attempt, I didn’t, which makes the trip to Bonmalmo quite unnecessary.


Now, if that's the case, than you need to be somewhat prepared for it and adjust on the fly, or redo the segment with that new knowledge. 

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Thought: Would skipping the order be faster?  Have to buy 7 half plates.  8400.  7 Broad Swords.  14000.  Total 22400.  Gross 60000.  Net 37600.  Could Taloon get 37600 faster by selling off more Abaci?  Taloon requires 60000 for the cave, 24500 for SoM, and 1500 for the Apron, so 86000 total (plus a few extra for wings).  Would be something to test out, for sure.


Another interesting idea. I’d have to test that myself.


Pure speculation on my part.  Take it for what it's worth.

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Short on money?  Is that the reason for the two battles at the beginning.  Nice that one dropped a wing.


Actually, I ended up 9 short of a Half Plate at the end of the chapter, so it actually does make a small difference.


All right. 

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Outside doesn't work in the cave?


That’s correct.

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SoMiracles to Ragnar, ok.  I would have thought he'd get a Sword of Lethargy.  Maybe later?


Ragnar is incredibly inept with the Sword of Lethargy, as he too often “uses” it for Sleepmore when he shouldn’t ever do that.


Forgot about that.  Makes more sense, now.

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Return out of Gardenbur instead of after leaving?


All of the previous instances where you mentioned that I didn’t use Return and should have are correct, but here you can’t, since the roof of Gardenbur prevents the usage of Return when inside the castle.


That's right.  Can use it once outside the building, though.  I can't remember when you did that.

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Ok, what was that transferring all about?


Mostly to get items with special effects in battle away from people who are too dumb to realize that they never work on Metal Babbles.

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I think the Hero is at a high enough level that running from old Aktemto enemies is guaranteed.  I think the Viceter battle should have been run from.


I have no idea how the escape rate is calculated in this game. Is it based on relative level?


Again, I'm basing it on III, but to escape in III guaranteed, the hero needs to be ten levels higher than the highest leveled enemy.  I would imagine fleeing in IV has similar mechanics, so those battles all should be guaranteed runs.

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Should have gotten a Leaf of World Tree before discarding the scale shield.  Wasted time here.


Yup, I messed that up.

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Strategy on the Anderougs didn't go terribly well.  I think the Hero was successful with one Defeat out of about 5 possible.  I was wondering if he'd go with a Beat strategy since I knew they were somewhat weak to it.  Maybe a redo was in order because of so many misses with Beat?


This was the best of quite a few tries against the Anderougs. It could be better, though.

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I thought Swingers were immune to Beat?  Why use offensive?


They aren’t immune to Beat, as far as I know.


Never were able to find enemies resistances?  If you could, this run could be streamlined a bit more.  DW III only had four resistance values, and I would bet IV has more.
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chessjerk: 2010-07-31 03:01:42 pm
One point I forgot to address from before (in your comments, DD):

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Segment 28:

No return out of Riverton?


Nope, since Returning to Riverton puts you on the south side of Riverton, not the north, meaning you have to sail through town to get out anyway.

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The whole of the beginning of Chapter 2 looks slow, and it's not because of the grinding.  After the niceness of Chapter 1, the opening seemed less than ideal.  Getting the mail is understandable.


Can you be more specific? The grinding is about 75% of this segment, and I didn't think the rest of it was that bad.

Also, yes, I must grind for the Mail, since I won't be able to efficiently grind for it later, and I absolutely need it for the tournament.

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Well, as I mentioned, if IV is anything like III, then yes, using the strength seed when you did is possibly a
waste of time.


But I'm not certain that's the case. When I used the seeds during the chapter, I never noticed a drop in Alena's normal Strength increases on level-up.

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I think our early chapter three is a good baseline to find out what is absolutely ideal here.  It's a start.


I agree. I've already worked up a better plan where I buy six wings after selling the first item drop, and by the time they are all used up, I buy six more to be used up to the statuette cave segment.

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If I considered one bad apple as ruining the barrel, than the whole run could have been rejected.  The shortness of the segments is what really sort of annoyed me about this particular error.  A thirty minute segment?  It still looks bad.  A five minute segment?  Easy redo.  Especially when there's little randomness involved.


It's easy to say that in retrospect. However, I was so sick of not getting the right price from the armor seller for the Full Plate and surviving the trek to Endor that I just gave up and moved on. I don't remember how many times I re-did this segment before I got the right price.

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Pure speculation on my part.  Take it for what it's worth.


And I do appreciate it. I did give it a shot and it does turn out to take longer anyway than how I did it in the run.

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Again, I'm basing it on III, but to escape in III guaranteed, the hero needs to be ten levels higher than the highest leveled enemy.  I would imagine fleeing in IV has similar mechanics, so those battles all should be guaranteed runs.


Good to know, I'll keep that in mind.

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Never were able to find enemies resistances?  If you could, this run could be streamlined a bit more.  DW III only had four resistance values, and I would bet IV has more.


Nope, my knowledge of resistances is based on my trial and error, nothing else. I'm not sure how I could streamline much, though, since the only resistance that's meaningful to me is Beat/Defeat resistance, and I generally let Cristo run free in random battles with Beat and Defeat. He never really has an MP issue until the final segment (since CJ can take over healing duties as needed).