Dragon Age: Origins - April 28th, 2010

2010-04-28 08:42:15 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet.

Eli 'Smilge' Chase's run with major skips

Verifier Responses

Quote:

Verifier: i think i can verify dragon age
Verifier: at any rate i already watched the video smilge uploaded ha
[16:32] mikwuyma: okay sounds good heh
[17:43] mikwuyma: oh yeah anything to say about the run?
[17:43] mikwuyma: knowing smilge's past work, it's probably really good
Verifier: yeah the execution is generally really tight
Verifier: and I can't really see anything wrong with the current tech and planning
Verifier: there's one thing that I -think- is a mistake
Verifier: it'd have to be checked
[17:44] mikwuyma: is dragon age any good?
Verifier:: uhh
Verifier: I've sure played it a lot
Verifier: the story is pretty silly generic fantasy stuff
Verifier: but the battle system is pretty good
[17:45] mikwuyma: yeah it's funny how bioware slammed jrpgs
[17:45] mikwuyma: when they follow western rpg stereotypes so badly
Verifier: ok so if this travel error i actually a mistake
Verifier: it's like a loss of 30-40 seconds
Verifier: combined in two occurrences
Verifier: so seriously unless more big skips are found
Verifier: I don't think there's more than a minute lost
Verifier: in the whole run
Verifier: also the other thing about the game
Verifier: though I figure this goes without saying
Verifier: it's very glitchy Cheesy

[17:49] mikwuyma: because western developers can't program lolol
[17:49] mikwuyma: actually video game programmers in general
[17:49] mikwuyma: can't program
[17:49] mikwuyma: if zelda and mario games are an example
Verifier: yeah I figure
Verifier: any game that people don't find devastating bugs in
Verifier: it's because there's just not enough people trying
Verifier: but bioware games do seem to be a lot easier lolol
Verifier: I got one glitch that made an upside-down view of the city
Verifier: during a cutscene
[17:50] mikwuyma: haha nice
Verifier: anyway even if this travel thing is an oversight on smilge's part
Verifier: and not just an interface difference on the pc version
Verifier: (which is possible)
Verifier: I don't have any problem calling it an accept

Quote:

Dragon age verification comments.

the runner apparently makes a few mistakes throughout the run, but none of them are that large or noticable, i know also that several new tricks have been discovered since the completion of this speedrun. so this brings me to a bit of an awkward decision to have to make. the run is as fast as it is going to be using the routes, and tricks the runner new at the time. But the run itself could probably be 5 minuites faster at least by using new and improved methods.

so ill have to accept it as if i didnt know about those new tricks, then this would be a very easy one to accept. it would be nice too see a new run at sometime but thats really not up to me as i am unable too do it.

sound/ video quality is fine, nice to see a new game brought to its knees so quickly

Quote:

The video quality is great, no noticeable audiovisual glitches.

There was no cheating for as far as I can see, the playing was near-optimization (not enough to demand a rerun), and the product of many hours upon hours of testing and theorizing.

However, new glitches have been found, route changes have been made, so it would really be up to you, Mike, to decide whether this can be accepted knowing 10% or more can be taken off, but also knowing that though obsoleted easily, we are still in the process of discovering new glitches and it could take a long while before an optimal route has been established.

Quote:

Looks great, sounds great.

Hmm, this is one of those unfortunate situations where some new tricks have been found since this was submitted. The execution is good, and it's still a very entertaining glitchfest of a run (about a half hour for a game that should take many, many hours), so I say it's acceptable as the official starting point for faster, glitchier runs of this game in the future.

And next time, unlock those specializations! I wouldn't even consider it NG+, since you don't even have to beat the game to unlock them for a different playthrough. Even if it is, it's too minor to have its own category anyways. They can only make the game either faster, or the same, so there's no reason not to.

Accept

Considering how many verifiers mentioned new tricks have been discovered since this run was submitted, I decided to ask the runner whether he wanted the run posted. The runner's response below:

Quote:

Yeah there have been a few simple and a few not so simple things to save time. I'd be happier if this run got posted so people would have at least a benchmark to shoot for. It's still a good speedrun despite the minor route errors.

I also asked him whether his run should be part of a "major skips" category, and this is what he suggested.

Quote:

Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?

Decision: Accept

Reason: A fine start to breaking another glitchy Bioware game.

Thread title:

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet.

Eli 'Smilge' Chase's run with major skips

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]Verifier: i think i can verify dragon age
Verifier: at any rate i already watched the video smilge uploaded ha
[16:32] mikwuyma: okay sounds good heh
[17:43] mikwuyma: oh yeah anything to say about the run?
[17:43] mikwuyma: knowing smilge's past work, it's probably really good
Verifier: yeah the execution is generally really tight
Verifier: and I can't really see anything wrong with the current tech and planning
Verifier: there's one thing that I -think- is a mistake
Verifier: it'd have to be checked
[17:44] mikwuyma: is dragon age any good?
Verifier:: uhh
Verifier: I've sure played it a lot
Verifier: the story is pretty silly generic fantasy stuff
Verifier: but the battle system is pretty good
[17:45] mikwuyma: yeah it's funny how bioware slammed jrpgs
[17:45] mikwuyma: when they follow western rpg stereotypes so badly
Verifier: ok so if this travel error i actually a mistake
Verifier: it's like a loss of 30-40 seconds
Verifier: combined in two occurrences
Verifier: so seriously unless more big skips are found
Verifier: I don't think there's more than a minute lost
Verifier: in the whole run
Verifier: also the other thing about the game
Verifier: though I figure this goes without saying
Verifier: it's very glitchy :D
[17:49] mikwuyma: because western developers can't program lolol
[17:49] mikwuyma: actually video game programmers in general
[17:49] mikwuyma: can't program
[17:49] mikwuyma: if zelda and mario games are an example
Verifier: yeah I figure
Verifier: any game that people don't find devastating bugs in
Verifier: it's because there's just not enough people trying
Verifier: but bioware games do seem to be a lot easier lolol
Verifier: I got one glitch that made an upside-down view of the city
Verifier: during a cutscene
[17:50] mikwuyma: haha nice
Verifier: anyway even if this travel thing is an oversight on smilge's part
Verifier: and not just an interface difference on the pc version
Verifier: (which is possible)
Verifier: I don't have any problem calling it an accept[/quote]

[quote]Dragon age verification comments.

the runner apparently makes a few mistakes throughout the run, but none of them are that large or noticable, i know also that several new tricks have been discovered since the completion of this speedrun.  so this brings me to a bit of an awkward decision to have to make.  the run is as fast as it is going to be using the routes, and tricks the runner new at the time.  But the run itself could probably be 5 minuites faster at least by using new and improved methods.

so ill have to [b]accept[/b] it as if i didnt know about those new tricks, then this would be a very easy one to accept.  it would be nice too see a new run at sometime but thats really not up to me as i am unable too do it.

sound/ video quality is fine, nice to see a new game brought to its knees so quickly[/quote]

[quote]The video quality is great, no noticeable audiovisual glitches.

There was no cheating for as far as I can see, the playing was near-optimization (not enough to demand a rerun), and the product of many hours upon hours of testing and theorizing.

However, new glitches have been found, route changes have been made, so it would really be up to you, Mike, to decide whether this can be accepted knowing 10% or more can be taken off, but also knowing that though obsoleted easily, we are still in the process of discovering new glitches and it could take a long while before an optimal route has been established.[/quote]

[quote]Looks great, sounds great.

Hmm, this is one of those unfortunate situations where some new tricks have been found since this was submitted. The execution is good, and it's still a very entertaining glitchfest of a run (about a half hour for a game that should take many, many hours), so I say it's acceptable as the official starting point for faster, glitchier runs of this game in the future.

And next time, unlock those specializations! I wouldn't even consider it NG+, since you don't even have to beat the game to unlock them for a different playthrough. Even if it is, it's too minor to have its own category anyways. They can only make the game either faster, or the same, so there's no reason not to.

Accept[/quote]

Considering how many verifiers mentioned new tricks have been discovered since this run was submitted, I decided to ask the runner whether he wanted the run posted. The runner's response below:

[quote]Yeah there have been a few simple and a few not so simple things to save time. I'd be happier if this run got posted so people would have at least a benchmark to shoot for. It's still a good speedrun despite the minor route errors.[/quote]

I also asked him whether his run should be part of a "major skips" category, and this is what he suggested.

[quote]Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.[/quote]

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?

[b]Decision[/b]: Accept

[b]Reason[/b]: A fine start to breaking another glitchy Bioware game.

Nihilus

2010-04-28 09:40:42 pm

About the category, I would say bypassing half the game or so counts as a 'major skip', but there's other glitches involved as well. So any% or major skip, doesn't matter, so long as there's potential for a 'glitchless' category in the future.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-04-29 06:29:12 am

Quote from mikwuyma:

I also asked him whether his run should be part of a "major skips" category, and this is what he suggested.

Quote:

Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?

I haven't played the game, but I would advise extreme caution when defining a major skips category for any WRPG. Judging by the Infinity Engine games and the Elder Scrolls series, WRPGs are often substantially more breakable than games in any other genre and in many we've seen massive game-breaking tricks discovered years after the first run was submitted. After their first couple of runs, there were seemingly sensible ways to define 'major skips' for BGI, BGII and ToB that have been made to look ridiculous by subsequent discoveries like Dimension Door abuse and BGII cutscene breaking. On top of that, if you have multiple categories, one may subsequently be neglected by runners, and if substantial new tricks and techniques are found that are applicable in both categories, you may end up with a highly polished run using the latest tricks in one category and an ugly, outdated run in the other (probably the 'no major skips' one). Obviously I have no game-specific knowledge here and Smilge does, so I'll defer to his judgement on how likely major breakthroughs are, but my gut feeling is definitely that you should hold off on allowing a 'no major skips' category for a while.

Oh and btw, congrats, Smilge. Now I just have to play the game so I can appreciate this run...

[quote="mikwuyma"]I also asked him whether his run should be part of a "major skips" category, and this is what he suggested.

[quote]Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.[/quote]

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?[/quote]

I haven't played the game, but I would advise extreme caution when defining a major skips category for any WRPG. Judging by the Infinity Engine games and the Elder Scrolls series, WRPGs are often substantially more breakable than games in any other genre and in many we've seen massive game-breaking tricks discovered years after the first run was submitted. After their first couple of runs, there were seemingly sensible ways to define 'major skips' for BGI, BGII and ToB that have been made to look ridiculous by subsequent discoveries like Dimension Door abuse and BGII cutscene breaking. On top of that, if you have multiple categories, one may subsequently be neglected by runners, and if substantial new tricks and techniques are found that are applicable in [i]both[/i] categories, you may end up with a highly polished run using the latest tricks in one category and an ugly, outdated run in the other (probably the 'no major skips' one). Obviously I have no game-specific knowledge here and Smilge does, so I'll defer to his judgement on how likely major breakthroughs are, but my gut feeling is definitely that you should hold off on allowing a 'no major skips' category for a while.

Oh and btw, congrats, Smilge. Now I just have to play the game so I can appreciate this run...

Eternalspirit

2010-04-29 03:29:49 pm

Boo, my comments weren't posted. Sad

mikwuyma

2010-04-30 12:18:49 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Oh, I probably just overlooked your comments Eternalspirit, sorry. :-/

Eternalspirit

2010-04-30 02:35:19 pm

Quote from mikwuyma:

Oh, I probably just overlooked your comments Eternalspirit, sorry. :-/

It's all good, haha. I gave them to you over AIM, and all I said was "Holy shit, batman. This run puts OoT glitching to shame. Accept."

spineshark

2010-04-30 05:45:14 pm

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

Quote from mikwuyma:

Quote:

Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?

Just requiring all major quests seems like it would still lend itself to the same sort of OOB glitching that's already used heavily in the couple of dungeons that are actually completed in the current run. It would be a whole lot longer despite that (since you'd need to hop through a bunch more maps), but I'm not sure what the point would be-it would look about the same but with a few more (incredibly trivial thanks to all that glitchy powerleveling) boss fights.

...but of course the Denerim skip isn't really OOB, so just banning the OOBs for a category wouldn't really be that different either. I don't know.

[quote="mikwuyma"][quote]Hmmm. The idea would be that you can't enter Arl Eamon's Estate in Denerim before the gates open. Specifically you'd need to complete all the main quests, which are "Arl of Redcliffe", "Urn of Sacred Ashes", "A Paragon of Her Kind", "Nature of the Beast", and "A Broken Circle".

I'm afraid it may not be quite as cut and dry as this if (when) more glitches and bugs are discovered, but maybe just cross those bridges as we come to them.[/quote]

That sounds good to me, does anyone else have any suggestions?[/quote]
Just requiring all major quests seems like it would still lend itself to the same sort of OOB glitching that's already used heavily in the couple of dungeons that are actually completed in the current run.  It would be a whole lot longer despite that (since you'd need to hop through a bunch more maps), but I'm not sure what the point would be-it would look about the same but with a few more (incredibly trivial thanks to all that glitchy powerleveling) boss fights.

...but of course the Denerim skip isn't really OOB, so just banning the OOBs for a category wouldn't really be that different either.  I don't know.

Smilge

2010-04-30 07:13:45 pm

Thanks everyone.

Quote:

About the category, I would say bypassing half the game or so counts as a 'major skip', but there's other glitches involved as well. So any% or major skip, doesn't matter, so long as there's potential for a 'glitchless' category in the future.

I always have trouble with the term 'glitchless'. I could give specific examples, but the long and short of it is that one man's glitch is another man's clever use of game mechanics. I don't expect that anyone will attempt a 'glitchless' run though, so it's not really an issue until someone starts one.

Quote:

I haven't played the game, but I would advise extreme caution when defining a major skips category for any WRPG. Judging by the Infinity Engine games and the Elder Scrolls series, WRPGs are often substantially more breakable than games in any other genre and in many we've seen massive game-breaking tricks discovered years after the first run was submitted. After their first couple of runs, there were seemingly sensible ways to define 'major skips' for BGI, BGII and ToB that have been made to look ridiculous by subsequent discoveries like Dimension Door abuse and BGII cutscene breaking. On top of that, if you have multiple categories, one may subsequently be neglected by runners, and if substantial new tricks and techniques are found that are applicable in both categories, you may end up with a highly polished run using the latest tricks in one category and an ugly, outdated run in the other (probably the 'no major skips' one). Obviously I have no game-specific knowledge here and Smilge does, so I'll defer to his judgement on how likely major breakthroughs are, but my gut feeling is definitely that you should hold off on allowing a 'no major skips' category for a while.

I think that completing the main quests (meaning they are marked as completed in the quest log) is a pretty fair way to define a no-major skips category. If a glitch comes along that screws it up, the line can always be redrawn.

I don't think anyone will actually complete a speedrun of a different category for this game. The quality would have to be very high for it to compete with a no-major skips run ( I plan on optimizing this one further in the not-so-near future). Optimizing a half-hour of gameplay takes long enough as it is. A no major skips run would take hours of gameplay, possibly years of planning/playing. I think one would burn out before getting it done. But hey, who knows.

Quote:

"Holy shit, batman. This run puts OoT glitching to shame. Accept."

Thanks

Quote:

Just requiring all major quests seems like it would still lend itself to the same sort of OOB glitching that's already used heavily in the couple of dungeons that are actually completed in the current run. It would be a whole lot longer despite that (since you'd need to hop through a bunch more maps), but I'm not sure what the point would be-it would look about the same but with a few more (incredibly trivial thanks to all that glitchy powerleveling) boss fights.

...but of course the Denerim skip isn't really OOB, so just banning the OOBs for a category wouldn't really be that different either. I don't know.

Heh. I'm not sure what the current run looks like to someone who didn't make it, but for me the boss fights (and even the fights with no bosses) were very exciting. Powerleveling might make fights trivial in the way that there is little risk of dying, but finishing a fight quickly is incredibly strategic. I'd love to see the many, many additional fights in a no major skips speedrun.

As for "what's the point?" If there is no point, no one would put the hundreds of hours of work into making the speedrun. If someone does put the work in, then there must be a point to it. It's a self-regulating system.

As far as I'm aware, there are no speedruns of this game currently in the works. Perhaps the debate should be left for if/when someone decides to punch out a different category speedrun.

Thanks everyone.

[quote]About the category, I would say bypassing half the game or so counts as a 'major skip', but there's other glitches involved as well. So any% or major skip, doesn't matter, so long as there's potential for a 'glitchless' category in the future.[/quote]
I always have trouble with the term 'glitchless'. I could give specific examples, but the long and short of it is that one man's glitch is another man's clever use of game mechanics. I don't expect that anyone will attempt a 'glitchless' run though, so it's not really an issue until someone starts one.

[quote]I haven't played the game, but I would advise extreme caution when defining a major skips category for any WRPG. Judging by the Infinity Engine games and the Elder Scrolls series, WRPGs are often substantially more breakable than games in any other genre and in many we've seen massive game-breaking tricks discovered years after the first run was submitted. After their first couple of runs, there were seemingly sensible ways to define 'major skips' for BGI, BGII and ToB that have been made to look ridiculous by subsequent discoveries like Dimension Door abuse and BGII cutscene breaking. On top of that, if you have multiple categories, one may subsequently be neglected by runners, and if substantial new tricks and techniques are found that are applicable in both categories, you may end up with a highly polished run using the latest tricks in one category and an ugly, outdated run in the other (probably the 'no major skips' one). Obviously I have no game-specific knowledge here and Smilge does, so I'll defer to his judgement on how likely major breakthroughs are, but my gut feeling is definitely that you should hold off on allowing a 'no major skips' category for a while.
[/quote]

I think that completing the main quests (meaning they are marked as completed in the quest log) is a pretty fair way to define a no-major skips category. If a glitch comes along that screws it up, the line can always be redrawn.

I don't think anyone will actually complete a speedrun of a different category for this game. The quality would have to be very high for it to compete with a no-major skips run ( I plan on optimizing this one further in the not-so-near future). Optimizing a half-hour of gameplay takes long enough as it is. A no major skips run would take hours of gameplay, possibly years of planning/playing. I think one would burn out before getting it done. But hey, who knows.

[quote]"Holy shit, batman. This run puts OoT glitching to shame. Accept."[/quote]
Thanks :)

[quote]Just requiring all major quests seems like it would still lend itself to the same sort of OOB glitching that's already used heavily in the couple of dungeons that are actually completed in the current run.  It would be a whole lot longer despite that (since you'd need to hop through a bunch more maps), but I'm not sure what the point would be-it would look about the same but with a few more (incredibly trivial thanks to all that glitchy powerleveling) boss fights.

...but of course the Denerim skip isn't really OOB, so just banning the OOBs for a category wouldn't really be that different either.  I don't know.[/quote]

Heh. I'm not sure what the current run looks like to someone who didn't make it, but for me the boss fights (and even the fights with no bosses) were very exciting. Powerleveling might make fights trivial in the way that there is little risk of dying, but finishing a fight quickly is incredibly strategic. I'd love to see the many, many additional fights in a no major skips speedrun.

As for "what's the point?"  If there is no point, no one would put the hundreds of hours of work into making the speedrun. If someone does put the work in, then there must be a point to it. It's a self-regulating system.

As far as I'm aware, there are no speedruns of this game currently in the works. Perhaps the debate should be left for if/when someone decides to punch out a different category speedrun.

Eternalspirit

2010-04-30 09:22:43 pm

A no major skips run of this game shouldn't be terribly difficult. Because of the abuse of the power leveling and infinite stats tricks, the boss fights become fairly trivial. MOST of them can be brute forced with ease, except possibly the Darkspawn Broodmother. I really can't think of any other boss fights that would require strategy, and one can be avoided entirely (the Werewolf quest line). The major decisions that would need to be made:

Is it better to save the mages or let them be destroyed? It would depend on which faction gives more of an advantage in the final dungeon, as neither choice takes any more time than the other (except for the fact that you need to worry about using the item to not allow the boss there to turn them into abominations)
Werewolf or Dalish? Both paths are significantly different from each other, and likely has a noticeable time difference.
Obviously Redcliffe should be allowed to be overrun by zombies. Poor Redcliffe.. then Connor should be killed. Redcliffe really gets screwed.
Harrowmont or the other guy (can't remember his name)? I believe the tasks for both are significantly different (I've only done the Harrowmont version)
Can the Urn of Sacred Ashes be skipped using OOB glitches? It would need to be decided if any of those quest chains need to be completed or not.

I think there are more tactical decisions to make and with the power leveling, the gameplay is largely cut out for you and should be fairly easy. But there's just so many decisions to make in the game..

A no major skips run of this game shouldn't be terribly difficult. Because of the abuse of the power leveling and infinite stats tricks, the boss fights become fairly trivial. MOST of them can be brute forced with ease, except possibly the Darkspawn Broodmother. I really can't think of any other boss fights that would require strategy, and one can be avoided entirely (the Werewolf quest line). The major decisions that would need to be made:

Is it better to save the mages or let them be destroyed? It would depend on which faction gives more of an advantage in the final dungeon, as neither choice takes any more time than the other (except for the fact that you need to worry about using the item to not allow the boss there to turn them into abominations)
Werewolf or Dalish? Both paths are significantly different from each other, and likely has a noticeable time difference.
Obviously Redcliffe should be allowed to be overrun by zombies. Poor Redcliffe.. then Connor should be killed. Redcliffe really gets screwed.
Harrowmont or the other guy (can't remember his name)? I believe the tasks for both are significantly different (I've only done the Harrowmont version)
Can the Urn of Sacred Ashes be skipped using OOB glitches? It would need to be decided if any of those quest chains need to be completed or not.

I think there are more tactical decisions to make and with the power leveling, the gameplay is largely cut out for you and should be fairly easy. But there's just so many decisions to make in the game..

Smilge

2010-04-30 10:54:09 pm

Quote from Eternalspirit:

A no major skips run of this game shouldn't be terribly difficult. Because of the abuse of the power leveling and infinite stats tricks, the boss fights become fairly trivial. MOST of them can be brute forced with ease, except possibly the Darkspawn Broodmother.

Again I'll emphasize that beating the enemies isn't the hard part. Beating them as quickly as is possible with the huge number of very different spells and spell combinations is the trick.

Also, remember that powerleveling takes time, so a minimum level run would be optimal. A lot of brain power would need to go into deciding what level would be the fastest; at lower levels you have fewer spells, which make some or all fights take longer. Every fight would need to be attempted with and without certain spells to compare the time saved by not needing to power level versus the time saved in each of the fights. Add in that spellpower is increased through a seperate time-consuming process. Think about comparing level 13 with 500 spellpower with level 8 with 800 spellpower. Level 15 with 300 spellpower vs level 16 with 1000. You'd need to do endless combinations on every damn fight in the game. A level 9 may need to rely on fireball for a fight, but a level 12 could use stinging swarm. On another fight you'd want to use fireball no matter what level you are.

I assure you, a quality run would spend months or years trying to figure out the best setup. The route would be one of the easiest parts of the run.

[quote="Eternalspirit"]
A no major skips run of this game shouldn't be terribly difficult. Because of the abuse of the power leveling and infinite stats tricks, the boss fights become fairly trivial. MOST of them can be brute forced with ease, except possibly the Darkspawn Broodmother. 
[/quote]

Again I'll emphasize that beating the enemies isn't the hard part. Beating them as quickly as is possible with the huge number of very different spells and spell combinations is the trick.

Also, remember that powerleveling takes time, so a minimum level run would be optimal. A lot of brain power would need to go into deciding what level would be the fastest; at lower levels you have fewer spells, which make some or all fights take longer. Every fight would need to be attempted with and without certain spells to compare the time saved by not needing to power level versus the time saved in each of the fights. Add in that spellpower is increased through a seperate time-consuming process. Think about comparing level 13 with 500 spellpower with level 8 with 800 spellpower. Level 15 with 300 spellpower vs level 16 with 1000. You'd need to do endless combinations on [b]every damn fight in the game[/b]. A level 9 may need to rely on fireball for a fight, but a level 12 could use stinging swarm. On another fight you'd want to use fireball no matter what level you are.

I assure you, a quality run would spend months or years trying to figure out the best setup. The route would be one of the easiest parts of the run.

Eternalspirit

2010-04-30 11:09:42 pm

On the contrary, I don't think it would be too hard to figure out the "optimal" level/spellpower setup. Think about how many fights you're going to get into during the course of the game. Every non-boss encounter MUST be ended in one shot, because there's so damn many of them (skipping them is NOT possible because I believe you cannot exit the current area until you're out of battle, so nearly all fights you'll have to actually fight). If you have to take two shots to end each fight, you're going to spend double the time on the ridiculous number of non-boss enemies in the game (this would be particularly prevalent during the Orzammar quest, I think, ESPECIALLY during the darkspawn siege at the bridge). I think that should be the starting point - figuring out the sweet spot for ending non-boss encounters. This should be easy to do because the enemies are very predictable. At any given level, you'll know exactly how much HP, resists, etc. they have, and a very good idea of how much damage you'll be doing. From there, it's simple math to figure out how much spell power you'll need to finish the enemies off. At that point, I don't think you really even need to worry about the bosses too much, because there's comparatively very few of them, and the amount of spell power you'll need to efficiently end non-boss fights will likely be enough to end many boss fights very quickly.

For my money, I think you could've done with more spellpower in your current run. It was a great run, but the fights at the end took such a long time. Less leveling, more spellpower IMO, because the enemies scale to your level and thus become much harder to kill. Get the minimum amount of levels to complete the game with what you feel is required (at high amounts of spell power, I see no reason why you'd need anything other than Fireball and I guess Stinging Swarm, and another spell to use while Fireball is on cooldown).

On the contrary, I don't think it would be too hard to figure out the "optimal" level/spellpower setup. Think about how many fights you're going to get into during the course of the game. Every non-boss encounter MUST be ended in one shot, because there's so damn many of them (skipping them is NOT possible because I believe you cannot exit the current area until you're out of battle, so nearly all fights you'll have to actually fight). If you have to take two shots to end each fight, you're going to spend double the time on the ridiculous number of non-boss enemies in the game (this would be particularly prevalent during the Orzammar quest, I think, ESPECIALLY during the darkspawn siege at the bridge). I think that should be the starting point - figuring out the sweet spot for ending non-boss encounters. This should be easy to do because the enemies are very predictable. At any given level, you'll know exactly how much HP, resists, etc. they have, and a very good idea of how much damage you'll be doing. From there, it's simple math to figure out how much spell power you'll need to finish the enemies off. At that point, I don't think you really even need to worry about the bosses too much, because there's comparatively very few of them, and the amount of spell power you'll need to efficiently end non-boss fights will likely be enough to end many boss fights very quickly.

For my money, I think you could've done with more spellpower in your current run. It was a great run, but the fights at the end took such a long time. Less leveling, more spellpower IMO, because the enemies scale to your level and thus become much harder to kill. Get the minimum amount of levels to complete the game with what you feel is required (at high amounts of spell power, I see no reason why you'd need anything other than Fireball and I guess Stinging Swarm, and another spell to use while Fireball is on cooldown).

IcedCube

Edit history:

IcedCube: 2010-05-01 01:15:09 pm

2010-05-01 12:55:45 pm

You are mistaken, Eternal. Not every non-boss/lieutenant can simply be ended in one hit. There are various units that have an eccentric, to say the least, degree of hitpoints in relation to their general strength.

As I've seen in my testing, spending another 1 minute to get a one-shot on every non-boss unit actually costs time. If you won't take my word for it, please, do try it for yourself.

Many grats, Smilge. I hope I'll soon be able to beat your time. ^^

EDIT: @Eternal: in fact, I didn't care much for the debate, but as my interest now is peaked, I'd also have to inform you that there will hardly be ANY fights in the game. There are certain areas where the generic spawn point (which is commanded by the game with Leliana OOB) doesn't allow for an OOB, but the deadmines, the Brecilian Forest ruins, cult ruins, etc. can all be skipped -- to an extent. In those fights that are there, as Smilge said, a mere 0.3 seconds could be saved by favouring some spells over the others. There can be different and new spawns, different AI patterns on movement where there is not only luck manipulation, but luck manipulation using different configs on different patterns, which could become quite extensive in time. Add that up over fights that WILL be there, and you'd have a very noticeable (for someone knowing the game) speed deficit.

Also, how would you level? Would you get level 13 for Coercion 4 to skip Werewolf/Lady of the Forest, or would you leave at 5 with stat bonuses knowing that different routes may allow for the proper leveling? Will you need toxins (this is no major skips, mind you), will you need combat mastery? Will you use tactics, how many, on who, why, where?

To say this game would be easy to optimize is a laughable statement, to say the least.

You are mistaken, Eternal. Not every non-boss/lieutenant can simply be ended in one hit. There are various units that have an eccentric, to say the least, degree of hitpoints in relation to their general strength.

As I've seen in my testing, spending another 1 minute to get a one-shot on every non-boss unit actually costs time. If you won't take my word for it, please, do try it for yourself.

Many grats, Smilge. I hope I'll soon be able to beat your time. ^^

EDIT: @Eternal: in fact, I didn't care much for the debate, but as my interest now is peaked, I'd also have to inform you that there will hardly be ANY fights in the game. There are certain areas where the generic spawn point (which is commanded by the game with Leliana OOB) doesn't allow for an OOB, but the deadmines, the Brecilian Forest ruins, cult ruins, etc. can all be skipped -- to an extent. In those fights that are there, as Smilge said, a mere 0.3 seconds could be saved by favouring some spells over the others. There can be different and new spawns, different AI patterns on movement where there is not only luck manipulation, but luck manipulation using different configs on different patterns, which could become quite extensive in time. Add that up over fights that WILL be there, and you'd have a very noticeable (for someone knowing the game) speed deficit.

Also, how would you level? Would you get level 13 for Coercion 4 to skip Werewolf/Lady of the Forest, or would you leave at 5 with stat bonuses knowing that different routes may allow for the proper leveling? Will you need toxins (this is no major skips, mind you), will you need combat mastery? Will you use tactics, how many, on who, why, where?

To say this game would be easy to optimize is a laughable statement, to say the least.

Eternalspirit

2010-05-01 05:06:50 pm

Why would you need levels for anything other than Coercion (if it's even necessary) and whatever spells you need when you have a glitch that gives infinite stat points? When you consider that, why would you need Tactics/Combat Mastery at all? In relation to how fast your PC will kill mobs, it would be a waste of time to spend any time on the allies you'll take with you. Morrigan and Wynne might be good to tag along for instant death spells, but that's about it the way I see it, and even then, you can just do a Target Closest -> Instant Death and chug a mana pot when mana gets low.

The Coercion debate is interesting, because you're going to beef up the levels of the enemies and thus make them harder to kill, all to be able to skip one small section of the game. Is it worth it? Not sure.

I may have underestimated the planning involved for an all main quests run of this game, but to say it would take years is an exaggeration IMO.

Smilge

2010-05-01 10:11:13 pm

For Coercion it was found that increasing the increasing the Cunning stat by 25 was equal to a rank in Coercion, meaning 110 Cunning would be the same as 10 Cunning and 4/4 Coercion.

What instant death spells are you talking about?

Quote:

I may have underestimated the planning involved for an all main quests run of this game, but to say it would take years is an exaggeration IMO.

Well, we'll see about that I think Smiley

Eternalspirit

2010-05-02 04:58:56 am

I thought there were a couple of instant death spells in the game? Perhaps I'm confusing this with Petrify? I dunno, I've never played around with anything but the healing aspect in this game so far.. I had planned to make an offensive mage before I got caught up in Titan Quest/Sacred 2. >:E

Mystery

2010-05-02 11:11:44 am

Instant death spells? No. Not to my knowledge.
There are indirect ways, though, like petrify and then shattering.

IcedCube

2010-05-02 02:56:18 pm

Years to optimize, sure, but a good route and some basic data can be found in perhaps a few month's work. 110 is 4 coercion ranks, yes, but of course, we'd have to consider the fact that pressing 4 buttons is shorter than 110 points added. So, if we already were to need those levels, coercion might be time saving... unless of course other skills are more pressing. Would we need even more levels or would one of these be added later. Would 110 points THEN save time? So much to consider...

Mystery

2010-05-03 05:02:19 am

It doesn't need to be perfect right away.
Perfection comes one step at a time.