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My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/DonkeyKongCountry3.html

Austinn 'Davis' Hallman's hard 105% and hard SS run

Verifier Responses

hard SS

Quote:
Verifier: i verified dkc3 like the night you pm'd it
Verifier: bet you never thought i would finish a verification before i would finish one update (neither did i) =(
Verifier: and really never thought i would successfully complete running for sda before one update rofl
Verifier: anyway i have to meh the dkc3
Verifier: is meh an official option? lol
Verifier: like it's borderline, the main problem is that it is rather conservative
Verifier: otoh, as far as i remember, it's better than marsh's 100% heh
[20:33] mikwuyma: yeah it is
[20:33] mikwuyma: it's 19 minutes faster
[20:33] mikwuyma: so it's basically a pass
Verifier: yeah but this is any%
[20:33] mikwuyma: oh you mean the ss
[20:33] mikwuyma: sorry
[20:33] mikwuyma: whoops
[20:33] mikwuyma: yeah I can see what you mean
Verifier: he doesn't include some known tricks too
Verifier: i forgot a bunch of them but one for example is vs the robot
Verifier: it saves a shitload of time
Verifier: the coolest looking level is probably the dark level
[20:35] mikwuyma: I don't think this guy has seen the tas to be honest
Verifier: although lol i just realized you could play with uberbrightness
Verifier: and record at normal


Quote:
Video and audio quality was good except there was only sound coming out of my right head phone and theres nothing wrong on my side of things. No cheating detected.

I had a look at the any% TAS to see if the best strategies had been used and for the most part they had and I would be surprised if the runner had not looked at the TAS. I thought that the runner was clearly very experienced with this game and there were many impressive strategies implemented. The first couple of worlds were uneventful and pretty optimal as loads of levels can be skipped with the warp barrels. The bosses were on the whole very well done with some minor misses on a couple of them.

I felt that there could have been some more sacrificing on some levels as many levels were finished with both alive and near the end a sacrifice could benefit. Taking Krevice Kreepers as an example I think there should have beeb more mashing of jump going up vertical ropes and at the end a simple roll down to the flag instead of climbing down the ropes. In the comments some of the mistakes are noted but they only cost a few seconds. On krack Shot kroc I got the feeling the runner was not confident jumping and producing webs at the same time with the spider and thats why the buddy was lost early. Its not hard to do but the runner doesn't mess up much with it. The most time was lost on Lightning Lookout as Kiddy died early meaning most of the level had to be done with only one player and he played very carefully. Quite a bad mistake for me though was some inaccurate driving between worlds as there should not really be any problem with this. At 28:30, six seconds are wasted trying to go over the waterfall with the hovercraft when you need the turbo ski which is probably the silliest mistake.

Overall it was solid with some flashes of brilliance in the underwater levels, but maybe there should have been some more risk taking in place. Overall there were few mistakes so I vote accept.


Quote:
Quality (Capture)
The audio is only coming out of one side. But in a bizarre discovery, I tried switching audio channels in VLC from “stereo” to “right” and it started coming out of both speakers. If you select “left”, there will be no sound at all.

Quality (Gameplay)
I actually thought he was going to name his file “anime” on the file select screen, which would have resulted in rejection right there.

Arich (second boss) is where the first notable mistake happens. The runner starts walking ahead too soon and bursts the barrel, forcing him to get the one from the normal overhead spot. He also screws up a Dixie toss and has to wait until the spit attack is finished.
Judging from the looks of it, it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of space to drop down successfully with the barrel intact between the branch and Arich’s leg. If there’s a really low chance of success, I say just burst the barrel right away and go for it when it spawns in the normal higher area.

Squirt is the lamest boss ever. I think he may be worse than that belching barrel from the first level. Noting this means nothing has gone wrong since the last thing I noted.

Loses Dixie in Blazing Bazookas (2-3 seconds).

Loses Kiddie in Tearaway Toboggan (2-3 seconds).

He seems to play it a bit on the safe side in Krack-Shot Kroc. He still ends up losing a partner too (2-3 seconds).

I forgot how strange Bleak was, whom the runner has good luck on.

I had no idea you could squeeze past the Buzzers like that in Buzzer Barrage. This saves a lot of time obviously.

Floodlit Fish is done without actually lighting up any of the level, which is kind of impressive, except he does get hit at one point (2-3 seconds).

Was getting Webber in Creepy Caverns really worth it? It seems like a long way to go for such a short ride.

If the runner hadn’t lost Kiddie in Lightning Lookout, there are a few spots where he could have been lost on purpose to save time, mostly any spot with two Buzzers.

I think he’s practiced Poisonous Pipeline quite a bit. In case it wasn’t obvious to non-players of the game, the controls are reversed for this level.

Uses partner abuse during the Kaos fight to gain access to the barrel on the other side, saving having to wait out an entire phase.

Timing
The clock at the end reads 0:51. Oddly enough, this is exactly an hours difference compared to the 105% time.

Importance
I’ve only really noted mistakes and stuff that jumps out at me here, mostly because it’s so straightforward compared to the other 10(x)% runs in this series. In fact, the entire first two sections are just warp barrel rides. Though I know this run can be improved upon, I don’t know if it will be to the point where it knocks another minute off the in-game clock. Maybe those seconds he lost this time were just enough to push it over the 50 minute mark, who knows? I guess I’ll vote to accept anyway.


Quote:
Nice to see more runs of the DKC serie, more love is needed!

My first thought was: He/she is rolling way too little. Rolling is a lot faster than running so it should be used as often as possible and not only when there's an enemy in the way (Which isn't always done either.) A Lot of time would have been saved by this.

Some level comments and such:
The first two worlds is nothing special, basically warping all the time. Arich fight could have
been faster, even though the green ball things are very annoying.

Tracker Barrel Trek: Taking Ellie isn't really faster. They have the same running speed but Ellie can't roll. The time to get into the barrel and to get back to normal is just not worth it.

Fish Food Frenzy: A bit too many slowdowns to make the fish eat the fish or to not eat the mussel looks kinda bad. There's plenty of fish to eat without the slowdowns for it to attack you.

Low-G Labyrinth: Nice idea of taking the bonus here, I'm unsure if it actually saves time or not however. I guess I'll test one day.

Kaos Carnage: There's a quick kill method agaisnt this boss, used in the TAS. It's very hard to hit him all the time like that, but getting at least one extra hit is quite easy with some practice. And as this fight is very long, tricks to speed it up would be nice.

Lol at trying to go up for the waterfall without the Turbo Ski :D. I've done that multiple times as well. The in game timer isn't going on the map screen, so no time is lost anyway.

Tearaway Torboggan: Could speed up a bit by jumping at the slopes instead of going up/down in them.

Krach-Shot Kroc: Not bad. There are a few time saving tricks that could have been used though.

Buzzer Barrage: I've always loved this level, speed! Nice job with the barrel skips.

Floodlit Fish: Great navigating, except that you went a bit too far sometimes :D.

Pot Hole Panic: Another level where Ellie should be skipped. I liked the trick when you jumped off her though, had never thought about that before actually. Squitter is faster to skip as well.

Ropey Rumpus: There's a nice timesaving trick close the beginning that involved taking damage to get higher up quicker. But as you haven't done any other take-damage-to-save-time tricks, probably because it is a bit risky as you can't "refill" your Kongs in the level, so I didn't really except you to do it. But it saves a lot of time

Barbos's Barrier: A bit riskier tactic is to hit the mussels from the lower parts instead, less waiting time. Even riskier, but even more time saving, is to make the "torpedos" hit the red mussels without going yellow first, by being close to the mussels.
For the last phase, you don't need to wait until Barbos has shot all the spikes, you can hit him as soon as he opens up.

Creepy Caverns: Strange use of Squitter here... As there are no time savers you can do with him.

Poisonous Pipeline: I'm quite certain that it doesn't save time to enter the bonus here. Enguarde isn't far away and you don't reappear any further after the bonus. You don't seem to have any problems with the reverse left & right here. I always confuse myself.

Kastle Kaos: There we go, some damage to save time to get to the barrel earlier, nice nice.It is possible to be closer to the handle at some points.


Overall: Sound and audio seemed to be good enough and no cheating was noticed.
Because of mainly the lack of rolling, this looks just like a "Youtube-run". It's nice that the run was no deaths, but it looks a bit on the too-safe side. Many time saving could be used to speed up this even further.

I go for a reject.



Quote:
SS any%:

No deaths. No tech issues. No cheating.

Runner makes good use of warp barrels and a few damage boosts, and only seemed noticably cautious at a few points in the run despite essentially having 2 hp or less the entire time. The only exception is Lightning Look-out after he takes a hit and loses Kiddy, but even 53 minutes into the run, he still presses his luck more than once. I didn't spot any strategic decisions that struck me as out of place. Considering it's an hour long SS the mistakes are easily forgivable. Accept.


105%

Quote:
Video and audio quality was fine. No cheating detected.

Bearing in mind that the game only records time in levels and not on the world map I thought it was optimised pretty well but on some levels more than others. It is a clear improvement over the current run, beating it by about 15 minutes. It increases the amount of segments from 11 to 58 at no loss of time because of the way the in-game timer works. Having said that I am sure it would not have been too taxing to tag on the banana bird caves to the end or beginning of a level. Having a separate segment for that alone seemed too much and of course this results in a lot of back tracking to and from the save points.

In terms of the optimisation I thought that the majority of levels were done very well with some really nice strategies and execution in places. However, some levels could be quite easily improved; for example, on Krevice Kreepers he wastes 2-3 seconds going the wrong way. Now this right at the beginning of the segment, nothing really difficult up to that point. As he is segmenting every level it seems to me that he should not be accepting mistakes like this. It almost appears as though he is not attempting levels much at all and is just very experienced with the game and so he can nail a decent run like this very quickly. That is all well and good but with some more effort, as is mentioned in the comments he could shave a couple of minutes off this run overall. some errors would have to be cut out, like the one I mentioned. Also more risk taking (more sacrificing, more aggresive play; for example on Lightning Lookout).

Anyway, it is a good run and while it is not without its mistakes; it is still solid overall and a big improvement over the current run so a pretty easy accept.


Quote:
Segmented 105%:

No deaths. Segment 40 (Konveyor Rope Klash) was missing audio when I watched it, but I didn't spot any other major technical problems. A lot of the segments have a blip of loud static right at the beginning, which is annoying to listen to but not especially harmful. Considering that the source is VHS (as evidenced by the beginning of segment 8) I found this kinda odd. Didn't spot any inconsistencies between saves, but the only one that would even theoretically work is bear coins.

As far as I know the timer only runs during actual stages and in the bird caves. Good use of warp barrels to hit the exit first and go back for bonuses afterwards, when it made sense. Obvious mistakes are few for the most part. Good use of taking damage for the sake of speed. "Grab 15 Bananas" bonus areas are done as well as can be expected considering the luck factor. There are a few times when it looks like an accidental hit is taken, but nothing that seems reject worthy.

Stuff that jumped out at me that wasn't mentioned in the comments:

In segment 11, Springin' Spiders, I'm not sure if it's faster to do it the way the runner did or bring in Dixie instead and use the slow hair fall. I doubt it's more than a couple of seconds difference either way, so I think I can shut my intuition up on the grounds that it's a minor quibble.

Nice job breaking Parry on segment 16, Rocket Barrel Ride. Took me a second to realize what you'd done.

Missed throw at the end of segment 23, Ripsaw Rage? Might have saved a couple seconds.

In the bonus room of segment 41, Creepy Caverns, is it possible to grab that missed star without having to toss Dixie?

Overall, it's a well executed run and any obvious mistakes don't cost much time, and it's 15 minutes faster than the previous segmented run, even if it does use five times as many segments. Accept.


Quote:
Quality (Capture)
Picture quality looks like HQ VHS (if there is such a thing).
Segment 40 has no sound.
Segment 54 has some VHS lines go though it from 0:49-0:51.
There’s also half a second of a static bust to start off each segment after the SDA ID card.

Quality (Gameplay)
Segments 2 and 3
After Lakeside Limbo (first level), is there any specific reason why he went all the way back to the over-world, boated to Funky’s place, went out again in the boat and returned, and finally saved the game instead of just doing the next level and using the next save cave?
As a side note, I never noticed that easter egg in Wrinkly’s Save Cave with regards to the music playing until now. Holy crap.

Segment 6
Uses partner abuse (losing one to save time) to access a bonus game.

Segments 9 and 10
Partner abuse to get to the ledges containing the DK Coins.

Segment 13
Partner abuse to access the last barrel.

Segment 21
Fire-Ball Frenzy is handled very well (especially the second bonus round) until the very end when he looses Dixie to the end of a fireball.

Segment 24
It turns out that you don’t need to kill the TNT bazooka guy to get into the spider barrel behind him. I’m pretty sure it was common knowledge though.

Segment 31
The first 3 seconds contain a recording screen. Whatever though.
Partner abuse near the end to avoid slowly creating platform webs over the chemical vats.

Segment 36
OH GOD I CAN’T SEE ANYTHING HE MUST BE CHEATING.

Segment 40
No sound at all for this one.

Segment 48
He accidentally jumps upwards instead of down near the end of Criss Kross Cliffs, resulting in him losing Dixie.

Segment 58
Pretty much everything after Segment 52 is just Banana Bird collecting and item exchanging. King K. Rool gets crapped on to wrap things up, and that’s the end of it.

Timing
The timer at the end reads 1:36

Importance
I think this runner did a very good job, despite me not having said much. At first I was a little confused as to why he was only doing one level per segment, and it turns out the timer only counts for Banana Bird caves and regular stages. Map time is slacking time. I guess my beef is that it’s not like this game is REALLY hard, even on hard mode, especially when segmented, so I would have liked to see more levels done per segment. But if more segments are needed for the best possible time, it’s for the best. And this run beats the crap out of the old run by 15 minutes, so I vote to accept it.


Decision: Accept

Reason: The SS is fairly well done, and the 105% run is an improvement.
Thread title:  
For me, it was kinda a pain to watch honestly. Main reason is the lack of rolling. If you've played the DKC-games, you would know that it is a lot faster to roll as much as you can and by comparing a run that rolls much with one that doesn't, you'll see a huge difference. I'm really kind of surprised that no other verifier mentioned this.

Lack of several known tricks is another thing on the low side. Such as Barbos, that fight can be improved by a lot with an easy strategy.

And I really doubt that the runner watched the TAS, as the second verifier stated, as he/she would then know how to improve several things.

The run isn't really bad, as the runner overall knew what he was doing, which is a huge plus of course. But it could be a lot better with simple stuff. Therefor I went for a reject on both runs (Even though I only submitted for the any% run).
Not rolling? That would seem like an obvious no for me there, as it could be easily improved.
we have lift off
What about the improvement? How can you reject a run thats 15 minutes faster than the previous run?
Quote from ridd3r.:
What about the improvement? How can you reject a run thats 15 minutes faster than the previous run?

Oh, I was thinking the SS any%, I guess the 105% would be fine.
Complete. Global. Saturation.
Quote from neskamikaze:
Not rolling? That would seem like an obvious no for me there, as it could be easily improved.


Compared to Donkey Kong County, there aren't nearly as many places to abuse the roll in this game. And compared to that game's mostly flat levels, the ones in this game take you all over the place, with a good chunk of them being climbing/vertical based levels. I agree with the Barbos strategy though.
Ridder: Doesn't really matter to be honest. Let's say the first published run of Super Mario Bros. was one hour long, then someone submits a 30 minutes long run instead. By knowledge we would know that a run with that lenght wouldn't be good, right?
Maybe not the best example, but you should get the idea :P.

He's rolling through most of the enemies however and before jumping into a barrel etc. But times when you can roll, jump, roll, jump to save several seconds/level... Nah. For someone like me, it's a pain to look at plain running.

If the runner is reading this: I'll suggest to take a look at the TAS (Can be found here) to get some ideas on how the run can be improved.
Edit history:
System Error: 2009-09-30 12:14:43 pm
Generic Text
Man, that 105 is going to be a pain to watch. 58 segments? Hell, we may as well make an individual level table! And it sounds like even by those standards, this run is pretty weak. Way I see it, it's better to have an old rose than new shit.

SS is okay, due to lack of any precident.
Complete. Global. Saturation.
Quote from System Error:
Way I see it, it's better to have an old rose than new shit.


The old run isn't a rose by any stretch of the imagination. It's more like that ugly faded houseplant you want to die, but it keeps hanging on and hasn't been thrown out yet because both you and your mom are too lazy to go to the store to get a better one.
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
I agree with Tompa, I get the feeling the runner didn't watch the TAS, and also churned these out quickly. Although, your example just points out a fundamental difference between SDA and TASvideos. We publish every improvement. It's consistent and fair. There are benefits and drawbacks to each side, but after the Zelda OOT rejection (over twice as fast) still hasn't led to an improvement, I think some proponents of the TASvideos stance have reneged after seeing their biggest argument (a rejection will soon lead to an improvement) fail. The thing with human nature is if people see an improvement, it tends to spur more improvements, whereas a rejection of an improvement leads to "WTF what can these guys possibly expect, this is retarded" and they leave. The worst part about TASvideos is all the insane infighting everywhere, and almost all of it stems from the way judging is handled.

The other issue is which looks worse: a worse run on a game page, or a better but not optimal run on the game page but exposed by the act of publication. I think the former looks worse because the publication is a one-time event, whereas the run being on the site is continuous. Anyway this whole thing is summed up by "the best is the enemy of the good."


It's probably already obvious which verifier I am, but here's the rest of the conversation:

Quote:
<Enhasa> what are the verifier opinions so far btw?
<Enhasa> i can see them being mixed
<Mike> well actually
<Mike> that's exactly what they are
<Mike> because three have responded so far
<Mike> one pass
<Mike> one reject
<Mike> one meh
<Enhasa> lol
<Enhasa> well a meh is basically a reject
<Enhasa> hold a gun to my head and i say reject
<Enhasa> i know i'm not supposed to think this way but
<Enhasa> if his 100% is an autopass bc it's an improvement, that makes it easier to reject the any% bc at least he has something
<Enhasa> btw i'm sorry but i'm not really interested in watching the 100%
<Enhasa> esp since all i'd be doing is making sure it's legit, bc it's an improvement


I have verified an utterly ridiculous number of runs for SDA, and I thought this would be the first time I've ever disagreed with Mike on his decision, but typing this up, I think I do agree with it in the end. It basically just comes down to a philosophical question, not run quality question.

100% is a pass obviously since it's faster. But the any% case is very rare because it's a new category run that could be a lot better, but it is much better than an existing run in another category. So let's pretend the runner only submitted the any%. It would be odd to reject a run that is better than the existing run, so it would probably get passed. But the runner submitted both any% and 100%. The temptation now would be to accept the 100% and reject the any%. But the only difference in the fate of the any% would be the submission of the 100%, and that is a little wacky.
Edit history:
TheQuietMan: 2009-09-30 03:55:48 pm
Complete. Global. Saturation.
Quote from Enhasa:
The other issue is which looks worse: a worse run on a game page, or a better but not optimal run on the game page but exposed by the act of publication. I think the former looks worse because the publication is a one-time event, whereas the run being on the site is continuous.

I agree with this 105%, as well as most of everything else you said.

Quote from Enhasa:
It's probably already obvious which verifier I am...


Quote from mikwuyma:
Quote:
Verifier: bet you never thought i would finish a verification before i would finish one update (neither did i) =(
Verifier: and really never thought i would successfully complete running for sda before one update rofl


Nope. Not at all.
I disagree with the notion that "every improvement should be accepted".  As an example, I recently beat the Pikmin 2 run by 1:51; if someone came along beforehand and submitted a 20 minute improvement, should that really have been accepted, considering there'd still be at least 90 minutes of possible improvement?


(Yeah, this is a pretty drastic example, and I'm sure this DKC3 run isn't improvable by that much. I just don't think that an auto-accept should apply in all cases.)
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
If you havent submitted yet, yes.
we have lift off
Quote from Jigpuff:
I disagree with the notion that "every improvement should be accepted".  As an example, I recently beat the Pikmin 2 run by 1:51; if someone came along beforehand and submitted a 20 minute improvement, should that really have been accepted, considering there'd still be at least 90 minutes of possible improvement?


(Yeah, this is a pretty drastic example, and I'm sure this DKC3 run isn't improvable by that much. I just don't think that an auto-accept should apply in all cases.)


So instead, you should keep up the run that can be improved by 110 minutes? Rather than put up a significant improvement which has a good chance of getting the ball rolling? I mean the old runs need to be updated to the to new standards and I fail to see how rejecting improvements, even if they are not quite up to scratch, will help matters. Honestly you either need to accept improvements or delete the old runs and wait until a good enough run comes along. I realise this could be abused and for some stupid reason someone could do 30 minutes of improvement and stand around for 29 minutes and still beat the old run just to prove a point, but honestly that will never happen, people always submit their best or at least, the best as they see it at the time.

If people are so convinced this can be improved by a significant amount then why not take a leaf out of Exploding Cabbage's book and do it yourself! For a run which segments every level I will be honest I was expecting more as its very tedious watching all the backtracking. However, as TheQuietMan says rolling in this game has nothing like the impact that rolling does in DKC and I also agree with Enhasa's assessment on why the SS run has to be accepted, it was a much higher standard than the previous run.
Fucking Weeaboo
Quote from Jigpuff:
I disagree with the notion that "every improvement should be accepted".  As an example, I recently beat the Pikmin 2 run by 1:51; if someone came along beforehand and submitted a 20 minute improvement, should that really have been accepted, considering there'd still be at least 90 minutes of possible improvement?


(Yeah, this is a pretty drastic example, and I'm sure this DKC3 run isn't improvable by that much. I just don't think that an auto-accept should apply in all cases.)


If you are a verifier of a run and you've done an improvement to the run that's faster then what the runner did, by all means you can reject it purely for that reason, since it does NOT beat all records.  Double rejection possible if you have video proof.
The discussion about accepting improvements seems to come back quite often. I know it says in the rules that an improvement does not necessarily have to be accepted. But has it been explained somewhere more precisely under what circumstances that can occur ? I can only think of two cases where I personally think an improvement should not be accepted :

"A runner uses a legit shortcut that cuts the time of the existing run by 10 minutes (or whatever). Then the runner plays extremely sloppily and has 9 minutes (or whatever) more execution mistakes than the existing run to end up 1 minute faster."

In that case, I think it's called for rejecting the run. The second case would be that there are two runs in the same category undergoing verification at the same time and that are both faster than the current run (but that situation is so obvious that it is hardly worth mentioning). Personally, I find it hard to see why an improvement should not be accepted in any other case.
Hi! I'm andrewg!
If runs are bad I think they should be rejected.

If a run is an improvement, I think they should still possibly be rejected for these reasons:
- Improves the current run by a very small amount.
- Improves the run by a large amount, but does so by a new tactic (and does not play as well as the previous run without it).
- Has excessive mistakes/has excessive deaths, doesn't use fastest methods.


I just think a bad run shouldn't replace a bad run. If there are a lot of known improvements, a run should be rejected regardless of how much it beats another run by. What are the reasons the run was improved so much anyway? Was it essentially just a route change or some new tactics? Is the run better technically than the last run?


Right now, I have a run that beats the Lost Levels (SNES) Mario run by about 30 seconds or so. I would submit it, but It should be rejected even though it's an improvement. Reason being, I died like 6 times at the end of a bunch of levels. Honestly, if I submitted that run does anyone think it should be accepted?

Quote from andrewg:
If runs are bad I think they should be rejected.

If a run is an improvement, I think they should still possibly be rejected for these reasons:
- Improves the current run by a very small amount.
- Improves the run by a large amount, but does so by a new tactic (and does not play as well as the previous run without it).
- Has excessive mistakes/has excessive deaths, doesn't use fastest methods.


I just think a bad run shouldn't replace a bad run. If there are a lot of known improvements, a run should be rejected regardless of how much it beats another run by. What are the reasons the run was improved so much anyway? Was it essentially just a route change or some new tactics? Is the run better technically than the last run?


Right now, I have a run that beats the Lost Levels (SNES) Mario run by about 30 seconds or so. I would submit it, but It should be rejected even though it's an improvement. Reason being, I died like 6 times at the end of a bunch of levels. Honestly, if I submitted that run does anyone think it should be accepted?




Apparently they do, if it's faster it must need to replace it.

As for this game, it does beat the old one by a large amount, but that still doesn't make it good. I guess it's good to get rid of the old run, but that just means that this one needs to be gotten rid of quickly. When I get my SNES back I may work on this.
we have lift off
This is the guys first run and everyone is saying how bad it is, its not that bad! If you want to beat it then no ones stopping you but everyone keeps coming up with these ridiculous comparisons, 9 minutes of sloppy mistakes, loads of deaths etc. This run has none of that.

Quote:
Right now, I have a run that beats the Lost Levels (SNES) Mario run by about 30 seconds or so. I would submit it, but It should be rejected even though it's an improvement. Reason being, I died like 6 times at the end of a bunch of levels. Honestly, if I submitted that run does anyone think it should be accepted?


As I said before people submit their best, of course you won't submit that run because that would be taking the piss. Every run has to be taken on a case by case basis but generally an improvement is an improvement and should open up the way to more runs being submitted. If someone is taking the piss because they are really lazy or because they are trying to prove a point then of course it must be rejected but thats an extreme case.
Hi! I'm andrewg!
Sorry if I offended, I'm just discussing the situation. I haven't actually watched the run and I'm not too familiar with this game (it's my least favorite DKC easily).


Well the thing is, people can just practice a bit more if they want a better run or do more research. My first run was so awful, it had 2 deaths and still got accepted.  8)
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
ktwo, you're right, here are the two main circumstances I can think of. They're very similar though. First one is what you said, verbatim.

- A runner uses a legit shortcut that cuts the time of the existing run by 10 minutes (or whatever). Then the runner plays extremely sloppily and has 9 minutes (or whatever) more execution mistakes than the existing run to end up 1 minute faster.
- A runner uses a PS3 to finish faster than a run done on a PS1. The play is slower but the loading is faster.
Edit history:
ZenicReverie: 2009-10-01 10:14:24 pm
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from Enhasa:
ktwo, you're right, here are the two main circumstances I can think of. They're very similar though. First one is what you said, verbatim.

- A runner uses a legit shortcut that cuts the time of the existing run by 10 minutes (or whatever). Then the runner plays extremely sloppily and has 9 minutes (or whatever) more execution mistakes than the existing run to end up 1 minute faster.
- A runner uses a PS3 to finish faster than a run done on a PS1. The play is slower but the loading is faster.

You could also add language to that last one, playing in a faster language for text games would just make the game faster. Of course, what should be compared during verification is the actual gameplay, not the speed of the text or loading.

How about being luckier, but overall gameplay is worse? That probably goes along with the shortcut case.

By an improvement, I'm guessing the definition is an improvement to the gameplay quality, not specifically the time itself. So, taken in this context, I can understand an improvement always being accepted.
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Yep, good call on language. And yes, you have the intent of the backdoor correct.
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Quote from TheQuietMan:
Quote from System Error:
Way I see it, it's better to have an old rose than new shit.


The old run isn't a rose by any stretch of the imagination. It's more like that ugly faded houseplant you want to die, but it keeps hanging on and hasn't been thrown out yet because both you and your mom are too lazy to go to the store to get a better one.

Still better than shit.
Quote from ridd3r.:
This is the guys first run and everyone is saying how bad it is, its not that bad! If you want to beat it then no ones stopping you but everyone keeps coming up with these ridiculous comparisons, 9 minutes of sloppy mistakes, loads of deaths etc. This run has none of that.


The "9 minutes" reference (I assume this was adressed to me) had nothing to do with this run, which I have not watched. As far as I understand it's both faster and better than the existing run. If that is correct, I support accepting it under the label "improvement". You can accuse me of going off-topic (= start a discussion about when an improvement can be rejected), but if you blame me for participating in the witch hunt of the run itself, then you got me all wrong. I'm definitely going to download both runs once they are published.