Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow - August 15th, 2010

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2010-08-15 01:55:04 pm

2010-08-15 01:46:44 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/CastlevaniaDoS.html

James 'Aftermath' New Game + Hard mode run, and Boss Rush

Verifier Responses

Quote:

Besides a few minor hiccups both runs were well planned and executed. There's really nothing more to say - definite ACCEPT.

To answer the category question, I don't know why it says that. I thought it was agreed that succubus and suspend glitches were the dividing line.

Quote:

I have a non-verificiation question first off. I saw the definition of major skips for Dawn of Sorrow was changed on the game's page. It now says that any trick to get out of a room is a major skip. I'm a bit confused by that; it sounds vague. Does that mean that warping past a boss door to skip a boss is a major skip? Or is that considered warping into a room instead, and therefore legal no matter what?

Verifier comments below:

NG+:

What is up with the audio in this? At first not only is it out of sync, it doesn't even follow what's going on on the bottom screen. You can hear him getting a soul from one of the skeletons, but a soul never shows up. There's extra sound effects in spots too, like entering and exiting the pause menu. Then once he saves, the music skips and it's suddenly accurate with the bottom screen. Well, why not just use that part of the audio the entire time?

The gameplay itself is cool, though. Even though he wrote an essay on how to do this stuff, I'm still baffled. But it's still funny to see him slide around the map and get things. He beats the game in 2 and a half minutes, but he breaks it so much the game thinks it took 50 hours.

If the audio can be fixed so that it always matches up with the bottom screen, then I accept the run. I mean, I accept the run anyway, but I wouldn't want to see it on the site the way it is now. It's kinda grimey.

Boss Rush:
Hot damn, there is like nothing wrong with this run. Unless you really hate all the pausing involved. Talking strictly gameplay, though, it's 99% perfect. You'd be crazy not to accept this.

Quote:

Re: gltiched run
cool glitch bro, it's almost like you had to play the game
Re: boss rush
cool menus, bro
(those are both accepts btw)

Quote:

Both runs had some of the best A/V quality that I've seen yet in DS recordings. I've seen other videos of the succubus glitch being used to trip the Menace flag and skip nearly the entire game; but before seeing this run I never would have believed that it was possible to do this trick outside of a TAS.

The boss rush run had some menu input errors and hesitation while switching souls/equipment; but the actual gameplay was near-perfect. I hope to see a future run with tighter menu manipulation.

I vote to accept both runs.

Quote:

Hey Mike,

This is gonna be a short verification I'm afraid. =P Quality was pretty good for a recorded DS game (in the case of the new game plus, the double screen was a nice touch!).

The mistakes in either categories were very minor and hard to spot. I really can't think of any strats that could improve the current times (well, not worth it anyway).

This is an easy accept for both!

Now do any% non-glitched! ;]

Decision: Accept

Reason: I think there's more menu than gameplay now.

Thread title:

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/CastlevaniaDoS.html

James 'Aftermath' New Game + Hard mode run, and Boss Rush

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]Besides a few minor hiccups both runs were well planned and executed. There's really nothing more to say - definite ACCEPT.[/quote]

To answer the category question, I don't know why it says that. I thought it was agreed that succubus and suspend glitches were the dividing line.

[quote]I have a non-verificiation question first off. I saw the definition of major skips for Dawn of Sorrow was changed on the game's page. It now says that any trick to get out of a room is a major skip. I'm a bit confused by that; it sounds vague. Does that mean that warping past a boss door to skip a boss is a major skip? Or is that considered warping into a room instead, and therefore legal no matter what?

Verifier comments below:

NG+:

What is up with the audio in this? At first not only is it out of sync, it doesn't even follow what's going on on the bottom screen. You can hear him getting a soul from one of the skeletons, but a soul never shows up. There's extra sound effects in spots too, like entering and exiting the pause menu. Then once he saves, the music skips and it's suddenly accurate with the bottom screen. Well, why not just use that part of the audio the entire time?

The gameplay itself is cool, though. Even though he wrote an essay on how to do this stuff, I'm still baffled. But it's still funny to see him slide around the map and get things. He beats the game in 2 and a half minutes, but he breaks it so much the game thinks it took 50 hours.

If the audio can be fixed so that it always matches up with the bottom screen, then I accept the run. I mean, I accept the run anyway, but I wouldn't want to see it on the site the way it is now. It's kinda grimey.

Boss Rush:
Hot damn, there is like nothing wrong with this run. Unless you really hate all the pausing involved. Talking strictly gameplay, though, it's 99% perfect. You'd be crazy not to accept this.[/quote]

[quote]Re: gltiched run
cool glitch bro, it's almost like you had to play the game
Re: boss rush
cool menus, bro
(those are both accepts btw)[/quote]

[quote]Both runs had some of the best A/V quality that I've seen yet in DS recordings.  I've seen other videos of the succubus glitch being used to trip the Menace flag and skip nearly the entire game; but before seeing this run I never would have believed that it was possible to do this trick outside of a TAS.

The boss rush run had some menu input errors and hesitation while switching souls/equipment; but the actual gameplay was near-perfect.  I hope to see a future run with tighter menu manipulation.

I vote to accept both runs.[/quote]

[quote]Hey Mike,

This is gonna be a short verification I'm afraid. =P Quality was pretty good for a recorded DS game (in the case of the new game plus, the double screen was a nice touch!).

The mistakes in either categories were very minor and hard to spot. I really can't think of any strats that could improve the current times (well, not worth it anyway).

This is an easy accept for both!

Now do any% non-glitched! ;][/quote]

[b]Decision[/b]: Accept

[b]Reason[/b]: I think there's more menu than gameplay now.

Aftermath

2010-08-15 07:21:40 pm

Quits halfway

Yeah, I don't really have any excuses for the menu flubs, I'm just really bad at them (I don't think I had an attempt without menu errors).

Not sure if this part of the notes made it to verifiers, but the top/bottom screens were recorded separately, and nate accidentally included the top screen's music (since it'd be impossible to tell which is which if you don't know the game). So yeah, when I was doing the run for the top screen, I got a Bat soul and had some other errors which I edited out to make the movement of the top screen match the bottom, so the sound was messed up. Bottom screen was the real run copy, so wasn't edited. Nate did go back and change the verifier copy so that it used the bottom screen's audio.

Seems kind of weird to do that, but I thought that it was kind of important to show what was going on, seeing as how the bulk of the run takes place on the top screen.

And to answer the category question, it was agreed that any warping out of a room constitutes a major skip. This also covers SGing through boss rush as not being the same category as menuing through boss rush. Basically any use of the SG should equate to using a major skip route.

Verifier 4: You should check out the Metroid Prime Hunters runs. His recording quality is a better than mine, and they are great runs. Also, I've had a run with this trick on the site for like a year >_>

Thanks to everyone for verifying, I'll be getting back to running DoS soon, but unfortunately the any% warps is going to have to come before any% non-glitched.

Yeah, I don't really have any excuses for the menu flubs, I'm just really bad at them (I don't think I had an attempt without menu errors).

Not sure if this part of the notes made it to verifiers, but the top/bottom screens were recorded separately, and nate accidentally included the top screen's music (since it'd be impossible to tell which is which if you don't know the game). So yeah, when I was doing the run for the top screen, I got a Bat soul and had some other errors which I edited out to make the movement of the top screen match the bottom, so the sound was messed up. Bottom screen was the real run copy, so wasn't edited. Nate did go back and change the verifier copy so that it used the bottom screen's audio.

Seems kind of weird to do that, but I thought that it was kind of important to show what was going on, seeing as how the bulk of the run takes place on the top screen.

And to answer the category question, it was agreed that any warping out of a room constitutes a major skip. This also covers SGing through boss rush as not being the same category as menuing through boss rush. Basically any use of the SG should equate to using a major skip route.

Verifier 4: You should check out the Metroid Prime Hunters runs. His recording quality is a better than mine, and they are great runs. Also, I've had a run with this trick on the site for like a year >_>

Thanks to everyone for verifying, I'll be getting back to running DoS soon, but unfortunately the any% warps is going to have to come before any% non-glitched.

romscout

2010-08-15 07:26:13 pm

that Metroidvania guy

boss rush RTA imo

Satoryu

2010-08-15 10:50:23 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from Aftermath:

And to answer the category question, it was agreed that any warping out of a room constitutes a major skip. This also covers SGing through boss rush as not being the same category as menuing through boss rush. Basically any use of the SG should equate to using a major skip route.

Could you tell it was me? I still don't agree with that at all. I don't think SGing past boss doors should be a major skip.

Aftermath

2010-08-17 04:50:50 am

Quits halfway

Nope, totally unexpected that that was you.

My memory is fuzzy of the discussion, but I think one of the main points of the category as it is now is that if you use the SG for one thing (going past boss doors), then it doesn't make sense to draw arbitrary limits on it, since warping is warping. I'm pretty sure this is exactly what you don't agree with, so my saying that does nothing, but I think it's a good division, or else you'd have separate definitions for any% categories and the boss rush category (unless you'd say that SG boss rush doesn't constitute major skips).

Satoryu

2010-08-18 12:00:25 pm

Visually Appealing

Hmm. I hadn't considered Boss Rush before. SG is a pretty major skip for Boss Rush. And if the ruling is to be consistent, yeah, it would make sense to disallow it in the regular game as well.

Although, the skips you can do in the regular game are far more "major" than going through boss doors. I think everyone's in agreement that zipping with SG is a major skip. But I still would've preferred if the any% (and any other category really) allowed SGing to an adjacent room. I remember the problem with that originally was Abaddon. But you can AxeSG into his boss room without touching the save room under him.

Aftermath

2010-08-18 01:09:53 pm

Quits halfway

I'm not sure of what to say really, but I think that having no-warp and warp runs is a clearer ruling than warp in-bounds and warp OoB. Warping IB cuts off about 20%-25% of a warpless run, that might qualify as a major skip. From a viewer perspective, I think a warpless run is more important to have than a limited warp run.

Probably not convincing at all, but I can't think of more reasons why it's how it is currently. I just got lucky that Mike's decision ended up on my side.

Satoryu

2010-08-18 10:29:18 pm

Visually Appealing

See, my thing was I don't even consider SGing past a boss door a warp. It's going from one room to the very next room, just acting as if the door blocking it wasn't there. I guess I still have an older mentality about it. I'm more concerned about zipping and mysterious warping.

Serris

2010-08-20 05:21:55 pm

This game is such a mess. If we're going with "warpless", there's no reason to disallow non-warp SG applications like Satoryu mentioned. If we're going with "no major skips" and judge glitches by their potential (as in exploit them fully or don't use them at all), we'd have to ban the backstab-onto-switch SBs as well. They're certainly major skips, and both Succubus and weapon special exploits are potentially game-breaking. Even if you don't do the Dmitrii warp you can Cutall special into doors to start zipping and such. Not sure if that would have any uses (soul-glitching?), but the point still stands.

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2010-08-20 06:36:43 pm

2010-08-20 06:34:40 pm

Quits halfway

No, it's not really a mess, because SGing is warping. So, warpless necessarily disallows any use of SG, or zipping, including into the next room. Warping is doing an attack or move that changes your ending location from your starting without regard to any obstacle. The backstab special wouldn't count as warping because you return to your original position.

The backstab SBs cut out 3 bosses, out of more than a dozen. In bounds SG cuts out 4 (or 5) more, to more than half of the bosses, THAT is a major skip. The cutall backstabs aren't gamebreaking on their own, you CAN use it to start zips, but again, only by warping (see supplied definition above), and there's no use for them afaik.

The line for warping has to be drawn somewhere, and it really makes no sense to just arbitrarily draw it at "in-bounds", and then create some fragile definition of in-bounds that allows the warps that are useful. Instead, it should just be no warping, no zipping, no SG.

Serris

2010-08-20 06:46:54 pm

Warping means zipping here. The "warping" part of the backstab is an intended gameplay feature. Using it to reach things you're not supposed to reach (the other side of a door in combination with Succubus or a switch) is the glitch. SGing = warping was true before pure weapon special warping was found. The current warpless route can be considered a relic from back then.

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2010-08-20 07:08:31 pm

2010-08-20 06:59:23 pm

Quits halfway

No, that's not right at all. Between the door zip, cutscene zip, and SG zip, the cause is exactly the same, something interrupts the intended gameplay feature, and it causes you to warp to the interrupted position.

There's nothing new that was found with pure weapon zips, just a different way of doing the exact same thing, so all of the previous definitions still apply. Something interrupts a special and resets your position, the method by which this happens isn't at all important, it results in the exact same thing.

If you doubt this, go fight any boss with a cutscene, like Axe Armor, and as you kill him, backstab to the other side of the door. It warps you to the other side. There's no distinction at all between any type of zipping and warping. Hitting the switch with the weapon special does not qualify as an actual warp nor do I think it cuts off enough of the game to qualify as a major skip.

Disclaimer: it may seem like I'm pretty angry over this, but I'm not, just hungry, so hopefully you aren't taking them the wrong way.

No, that's not right at all. Between the door zip, cutscene zip, and SG zip, the cause is exactly the same, something interrupts the intended gameplay feature, and it causes you to warp to the interrupted position.

There's nothing new that was found with pure weapon zips, just a different way of doing the exact same thing, so all of the previous definitions still apply. Something interrupts a special and resets your position, the method by which this happens isn't at all important, it results in the exact same thing.

If you doubt this, go fight any boss with a cutscene, like Axe Armor, and as you kill him, backstab to the other side of the door. It warps you to the other side. There's no distinction at all between any type of zipping and warping. Hitting the switch with the weapon special does not qualify as an actual warp nor do I think it cuts off enough of the game to qualify as a major skip.

Disclaimer: it may seem like I'm pretty angry over this, but I'm not, just hungry, so hopefully you aren't taking them the wrong way.

Serris

Edit history:

Serris: 2010-08-20 07:16:04 pm

2010-08-20 07:05:15 pm

With backstabbing onto switches, you're achieving the same thing as if you SG'd past the door. The difference is just a technicality. "Warpless" isn't an SDA category, it's "without major skips".

Nah, I can kinda guess where you're coming from. I'm also attached to the way we categorized this stuff before, I'm just not sure it makes sense as an SDA category anymore.

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2010-08-20 07:30:52 pm

Aftermath: 2010-08-20 07:29:55 pm

Aftermath: 2010-08-20 07:23:07 pm

2010-08-20 07:20:02 pm

Quits halfway

http://speeddemosarchive.com/MegaMan2.html First thing that came to mind with a clause for zipping, which would more or less equate to warping in this. The DoS page says warping out of a room constitutes a major skip.

The backstab doesn't warp out of the room, and it's not achieving the same thing, if you view it via the game mechanics. Visually, it is just a technicality, but according to the game, two quite different things happen. That and you don't leave the room when you hit the switch, which is the big thing.

Edit: Going back to the without major skips thing; SGing is major skips. 7 out of 13 bosses skipped is major. And it comes back to the fact that the exact same mechanic you use to skip 7 bosses can be used to skip 11 and completely break the game in any way possible, the mechanic to skip 3 can only be used to skip 3 bosses, and that's it.

Serris

2010-08-20 07:33:18 pm

The note on the DoS page is just a quick explanation for the run that's already there, I think. Mike said he doesn't know the game, so it wouldn't make sense to write anything other than stuff pertaining to runs already on the page. Doesn't necessarily mean it's the only thing that constitutes a major skip. It doesn't matter anymore how you achieve it, how much is skipped is what counts. How much is too much is up for debate, of course. Skipping 3 bosses is still major in my opinion.

RingRush

2010-11-15 11:27:37 am

Okay question, how did this get accepted as an SS run? It goes back to the main menu when it isn't required to do so to beat the game (yes I know the trick requires it, but that doesn't matter). So, has SDA changed their policy at all? If I submit a DK64 run that savewarps a few times in order to do some important skips, could it still be called a single segment?

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2010-11-15 11:55:23 am

Aftermath: 2010-11-15 11:54:43 am

2010-11-15 11:37:59 am

Quits halfway

This came up in the previous run, where it was originally going to be split into 3 segments instead of 2, because of the suspend. As far as that went was that because it's not really a save (the suspend data is deleted when you load it) it wouldn't count as a separate segment. If, under the SDA rules, it's not SS, then it made it through because I never asked Mike or nate about it this time around and it just slipped through?

In your DK64 example, they're actually saves and a manual reset.

13013

(user is banned)

2010-11-15 12:07:47 pm

Yes Mario Riding A Pole

Quote from RingRush:

Okay question, how did this get accepted as an SS run? It goes back to the main menu when it isn't required to do so to beat the game (yes I know the trick requires it, but that doesn't matter). So, has SDA changed their policy at all? If I submit a DK64 run that savewarps a few times in order to do some important skips, could it still be called a single segment?

http://speeddemosarchive.com/StarFox64.html#100p_expert that run goes back to main menu 2 times and its still single segment because there was no reset of console or power off and then power back on and there was no save come back later player etc.

RingRush

Edit history:

RingRush: 2010-11-15 02:37:13 pm

2010-11-15 02:34:45 pm

The difference is SF64 forces you to reset. Same with Pokemon Crystal. The rule is if you are forced to reset, it is okay to. But in a case like this game, you are not forced to go back to the title screen - it was merely done to make it faster. DK64 would also benefit from a consistant ruling where you can go back to the title screen in an SS (not even pressing reset, just using the quit feature).

Basically, for the sake of consistancy, either this run should be relabeled (at which point it is a segmented run and probably easily beaten, unless we add RTA-or-whatever-we'ld-call-it) or heading back to the title screen when not necessary should be acceptable for other games.

@The suspend point: You can easily segment a run using only suspends and file copying, and those wouldn't be called "single segment runs". I think differentiating between a save and a suspend is a bit silly and not really founded in anything.

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2010-11-15 03:09:39 pm

2010-11-15 02:55:50 pm

Quits halfway

You can't copy suspends, you can't segment with suspends, they are not real saves.

Just to be clear to you, as well, I don't have any preference how this is labeled. I submitted it as SS since I did it in one segment. Even if it were segmented, I don't think it'd be easily beaten, the only mistake I make is in the menu, which traditionally doesn't matter in this game (had no idea how it'd be timed this time around). That and the fact that I think I'm the only person that's bothered learning this trick, not to mention having a DS recording setup.

Greenalink

2010-11-16 04:23:31 pm

DS Dictator

Quote:

You can't copy suspends, you can't segment with suspends, they are not real saves.

Only 3rd party devices like the NDS Adapter Plus can copy the battery save files which includes 'suspended' saves. Other than that, it works pretty similar when segmenting Majora's Mask / New Super Mario Bros Wii*

* Only applies when you do a Quick Save anytime before completing 8-Bowser's Castle.