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mikwuyma: 2009-07-06 07:09:04 pm
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/CastlevaniaCotM.html

Richard 'Belmont' Jasionowski's Magician mode run

Verifier Responses

Quote:
Ok, finished watching.  Time is 31:18, assuming I tallied them right.

Just to be sure:

1 - 12:45 (frames 4159 to 50010)
2 - 7:19 (994 to 27329)
3 - 1:16 (1013 to 5540)
4 - 9:58 (998 to 36849)
Tot - 31:18

4 seconds short of beating it by 10 minutes flat and matching the forbidden one's fighter run.  Accept or join him in hell.

BTW - shouldn't the "real time" rule be noted on the game's page since we're not using the in-game timer. (Mike's note: This rule applies to any in-game timer that doesn't give you a final time, so I don't see any reason to)


Quote:
Audio and Video are fine, and I can't spot any cheating.

First thing I have to mention is a big route change. It is possible to get to Camilla through the back door of the Underground Waterway. By using a summon skill in the air, your vertical velocity is reset. By doing this repeatedly and holding a direction, in addition to wall jumping, it is possible to climb over that structure. Doing this eliminates not only going through most of the Waterway, but eliminates needing to go to the Chapel entirely. This TAS show the trick. Keep in mind, that run is on Vampire Killer Mode. Magician Mode has plenty of MP to pull the trick off.

I can only assume this trick wasn't used because the runner wasn't aware of it. I'm not exactly sure how well known the trick is, either. So for now, I won't hold this against the runner. But just a note for the future, this trick should most certainly be used in a Magician Mode run, and should be considered for a Vampire Killer Mode run as well.

Onto the run itself:

Segment 1 --
He went the wrong way twice before reaching the Catacombs. At the very beginning of the run, there's really no excuse for something like that. He ran off a platform accidentally not too long after getting the dash boots. At about 4 minutes, he misses a ledge. 4:35 has a missed jump. He misses jumping into the Outer Wall.

For the Necromancer, I would suggest trying to kill him with a bone. By using Diane+Griffin, he has to wait for the Necromancer to transform into the second form. A bone is a 1 hit kill. I understand the randomness involved, but that's why runs are segmented.

Nicely done in the Machine Tower. No mistakes with all that crazy platforming. However, the bone is a much better idea on the Iron Golem. Even not getting the big bone a few times would be faster than this. And you wouldn't run out of MP either.

Which again, if you're going to segment a run, why not manipulate a little luck? And why not segment more? It'll make sure you don't have embarassing mistakes in the run, like the missed jumps at 12:30 and 13:30, or the failed attempts at the wall jump shortcuts in the Chapel.

Segment 2 --
Again, if you're going to save right in front of Adramelech, why not try to bone him?

3:04-05 has 2 more missed jumps. So does 3:20. Everything else looks fine, though I'm not sure he handled Camilla properly.

Segment 3 --
I don't think having mistakes like the ones at 0:48 or 1:21 is wise in such a short segment.

Segment 4 --
The fall 36 seconds in is inexcusable. He had okay luck on Hugh, only missing 7 times. Jumping over the Devil would've been a better idea. His luck on Dracula's 1st form was terrible. The fight took nearly 2 minutes, partially thanks to all the extra pausing going on. It might be better to just try and get more big bones.

On the second form, he forgot about the pause trick at first. He gets 3 big bones for 450 before using the trick, getting the last bone for 900. To get the most out of that big bone, he should've switched after the second 450 bone. This is assuming pausing doesn't cost him more time. Second half was rough too. He fudged the summon command a lot. I really wish there was a better way to fight this thing, and asking him to use the bones is a little much.

I can't accept this run. It has a lot of sloppy points and strategies I don't agree with. Only having 4 segments is my biggest problem. If you really want to segment a run, you should take full advantage of it. But if you want to allow yourself more room for mistakes, go single segment. And if the route change I mentioned is well known, that seals this run's fate.


Quote:
Great speedrun of CoTM, I'd say. The route planning was good and executed well, the faster-run magic significantly helped the run. The only part that looked a little sloppy was the beginning of segment 1, but these things happen. Virtually everything after that looked extremely smooth, especially all the necessary dodging easily made up for some tiny mistakes. I myself can't think of any (safe) ways to defeat the bosses in a quicker way, or faster ways to get to them. Overall the use of DSS combos was clever and appropriate for a speedrun.

I couldn't find any cheating or abnormal gameplay. Furthermore I can't complain about the video and audio quality, no desynch to be found.

My verdict: Accepted!


Quote:
Well in order for me to see the differences, I put this run and Persona's run side by side (not exactly side by side).

Segment 1:

I didn't see a point in the MP up (it could have made the Iron Golem fight faster than Persona's when waiting for the last attack) but it didn't seem
to help one bit with Adramelech (Persona's vid had HER kill Adramelech without the need to reactivate yet he needed to reactivate even with an MP up).

Segment 2 and 3:

didn't need any luck manipulation (other than the Carmilla fight which was basically at the end of seg 2) but had quite a number of
needless errors like missed jumps, getting hit, etc which is why I wonder why he didn't put more effort into it.


Segment 4:

Hugh battle was EXCELLENT. Very lucky with the bones.

Very good discovery about the giant bone's element, which I am pretty sure not many know of (maybe only the TASers?). I'm not 100% sure if Drac's 2nd form's
attacks are all random or he must do a particular move when he's low on HP but it seemed that alot of time was wasted with some of his attacks (I guess
needs better luck manipulation?). I'm pretty sure it was worth getting a better Drac fight over a better Hugh fight.

My overall opinion is that while the run was overall good, it could've been better. There were slight errors from the start of most segments which
makes me wonder why he didn't simply reset and try again instead of finish up the segment (the very beginning of segment 1 when going down and most
of seg 2 and 3 come to mind). While Persona didn't complete HER run, HER manuvering was much better overall (I wouldn't have noticed much errors from
this vid until I watched both). This run is MUCH better than the current run on the site and while Persona did not finish HER run, this is the one
and only complete run therefore my vote is: Acceptable. 7/10.


Quote:
Verifier: CotM is good, accept
Verifier: i kinda wish he would segment more, because the first segment is way too long, but he makes up for it with the ridiculous final segment he has to pull off
Verifier: there's just a few stupid mistakes in the beginning (and some at the end, but there isn't nearly as much he could do about those) that I think he could eliminate by splitting the first segment up into two-three segs, since he has to go to save rooms to refill health regardless
Verifier: even if he does have to reactivate his DSS cards, it'd be worth it
Verifier: video quality is fine, sound is desynched in seg 1
Verifier: but audio is otherwise fine
Verifier: i'd harp on him about a cautious dracula fight, but, as said, he does need ridiculous luck, and maybe thunderbird doesn't work as well as I think it does or something


Decision: Accept

Reason: It's a significant improvement over the old run (around 10 minutes).

Verifier 2: I actually agree with nearly everything you said, but this run is still a lot better than the current one (I wasn't a verifier, but I have played the game before).

To the runner:

1. Don't send .mp4 sources to nate, they're very hard to encode properly.

2. How to split up the first segment. Good points to split up the segment would be the save before the Necromancer (5:45ish), and either the save in the clock tower (8 minutes-ish), or the save in the chapel (12:30ish). I could be wrong about these saves, but you visit them anyways.
Thread title:  
welcome to the machine
I was aware of the early Camilla trick, but I thought that was TAS-only for some reason?

(I'm the last verifier)
Edit history:
Persona: 2009-06-06 03:21:30 pm
Castlevania?
It's possible. Just tested it right now although I'm pretty sure not tool assisted is going to use more summons (I double jumped and then started summoning unlike the vid where he summoned then left the double jump for the end).

I smell sub 20 run!
welcome to the machine
Oh, sweet.
Edit history:
Belmont: 2009-06-06 04:43:24 pm
Quote:
First thing I have to mention is a big route change. It is possible to get to Camilla through the back door of the Underground Waterway. By using a summon skill in the air, your vertical velocity is reset. By doing this repeatedly and holding a direction, in addition to wall jumping, it is possible to climb over that structure. Doing this eliminates not only going through most of the Waterway, but eliminates needing to go to the Chapel entirely. This TAS show the trick. Keep in mind, that run is on Vampire Killer Mode. Magician Mode has plenty of MP to pull the trick off.


hmm...indeed. I was not aware of that trick. Very well, I'll improve this soon. Better segmenting, bone use, blah blah...

Quote:
I smell sub 20 run!


Good nose.
Wow, didn't know about that trick either. Still, it's a huge improvement over the old run.

I was verifier #3, by the way.
Run's done. and under 20 min.  Smiley (and probably more like under 19)
Hail Discordia!
If you opt to use the summon trick at that point, why not use it in the very beginning of the game instead to warp right to Drac and bone him, getting a sub-10 minute run? (It is also the reason the long any% on TASVideos doesn't use this trick.)
Castlevania?
Quote from moozooh:
If you opt to use the summon trick at that point, why not use it in the very beginning of the game instead to warp right to Drac and bone him, getting a sub-10 minute run? (It is also the reason the long any% on TASVideos doesn't use this trick.)


Most likely because that is considered glitching unlike this.  Tongue
Visually Appealing
Quote from moozooh:
If you opt to use the summon trick at that point, why not use it in the very beginning of the game instead to warp right to Drac and bone him, getting a sub-10 minute run? (It is also the reason the long any% on TASVideos doesn't use this trick.)


that's not the same trick. the one you described is a zipping glitch. the one above never leaves the game map.

though perhaps someone should submit a glitched run here. it would be pretty hard, but what isn't in this game?
Hail Discordia!
Personally, I would find it hard to make a distinction when you consciously use a potent trick but decide to not draw its potential. If you think about it, zipping by itself is the game engine's defense mechanism against abnormal player position, and is thus intended by the developers, while continuously moving up the wall without Roc Wing clearly isn't. Which of them is more of a glitch in that case?

The same argument would apply to: using Super Metroid's X-ray glitch in selected rooms to go through closed doors but not to glitch past Mother Brain; using exploration glitch in Zelda ALttP any% to save time but not to go straight to Ganon; using select glitch to remove obstacles from your way in Metroid II but not going through secret worlds, and so on.

I'm just not sure this is a right way of categorizing things.
Categories are highly gameplay-context-sensitive. Reasonably categorizing interesting runs in order to minimize arbitrariness and avoid cluttering up the game pages with too many too similar runs isn't a question of technical details.

Your examples are about using or not using a single game-breaking glitch to its fullest extent. Here, we have two categories where one uses a game-breaking glitch and one doesn't. Both techniques use the summoning gameplay feature, but that doesn't mean summoning = summon warp glitching.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Quote from Serris:
Categories are highly gameplay-context-sensitive. Reasonably categorizing interesting runs in order to minimize arbitrariness and avoid cluttering up the game pages with too many too similar runs isn't a question of technical details.

Your examples are about using or not using a single game-breaking glitch to its fullest extent. Here, we have two categories where one uses a game-breaking glitch and one doesn't. Both techniques use the summoning gameplay feature, but that doesn't mean summoning = summon warp glitching.


This post sums it up perfectly.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
So the runner decided to improve his run using the Summon reset velocity trick to skip the chapel (I think it's the chapel).

Quote:
Wow, no Adrelamech this time.  And nice point-blank shot on Drac's final form.  Accept.


Quote:
Verifier: speaking of that, i watched it last night
me: because as much as this run could be improved by at least a couple of seconds
me:asking for better luck is a little much
Verifier: much better than the old one
Verifier: yeah
me: especially since he got such good luck already on most bosses
me: yeah it is
Verifier: especially after he had to go make an extra save between hugh and dracula
me: okay I just watched the entire run
me: I have respect for the runner just for that final battle
Verifier: yeah, it's nice
me: it's not the best run, but it's definitely a good start
me: and it annihilates the old run
Verifier: definitely an accept, i'd say
me: agreed
me: just that movement after doing the summon trick Angry
me: and the beginning of segment 10


Quote:
Not much to say about this video other than this is what it was supposed to be from the first submission.
Well, other than the fact that the new route was known to us after the first submission making this even better.
Boss battles were perfect. Can't really get any better than that. The gameplay was very good in general.

It's usually very hard for me to be impressed with Castlevania runs but this impressed me especially seeing how much of
an improvement it is from the earlier submission. 9.75/10 (the reason that it doesn't get a full 10 is because even though
one of the main problems with the earlier run was the lack of saves, this run saves way too much. Nothing wrong with it but
some of the saves in the vid were really needless).

This gets my Pedobear seal of approval. Oh shi- did I just reveal myself? o.O

Approved.


Quote:
I noticed this run appeared on Youtube pretty quickly after the previous run got its verdict. That told me that the run was rushed. What I saw didn't disprove my initial reaction.

I am the verifier who rejected the previous run, by the way. I was pretty damn critical of the mistakes made in the previous run. And because this run has three times as many segments, expect me to be even more critical of the mistakes.

Segment 1 -- Checks out alright. Nothing to complain about.

Segment 2 -- He could move closer to the Cerberus so the attack hits him sooner. Maybe saves a few frames; nothing to really complain about.

Segment 3 -- fine.

Segment 4 -- A really short segment. Combining this with Seg 3 probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

Segment 5 -- Here's the part where I become public enemy #1. Because this run is segmented so much, I think it's inexcusable that he let this segment slide. There's no reason why the runner couldn't have kept retrying the segment until he got the big bone on the first throw. He loses 2 seconds because of this.

Segment 6 -- Could he have taken damage from one of the Earth Armors to avoid jumping over it?

Segment 7 -- 14 seconds in, he has a missed jump. He could've took damage from the Heat Shade he slid under. And again, there's no reason why he couldn't retry until the first bone was a big one. He gets the bone quicker here than with Necromancer, but it still wastes time. These are really short segments he's doing, mind you.

Segment 8 -- At 0:43, he goes to the left when he should have gone to the right. To be quite frank, such a stupid mistake should never be kept in a run like this. Twice before he got to the water way, he walked down the slopes instead of running. The execution of the summon climb is good, but he hesitated at the very beginning. And the drop afterwards is chock full of "I don't know where I'm going." It's like this was the first time he ever pulled it off. I know the summon climb isn't the easiest thing to do, but the mistakes made are just too sloppy for a 3 minute segment.

Segment 9 -- Again, it takes him 2 tries to get the big bone. After the fight, he's positioned the wrong way so that he has to run more to the Roc's Wing. The part at 1:55 isn't handled right. You can just moon jump from the bottom.

Segment 10 -- Another missed jump before the warp point. Before entering the Observation Tower, he moon jumped an extra time.

Segment 11 -- I can back off on the luck manipulation here. He had four little bones, but afterwards he got three big bones in a row. That's pretty damn nice. It is possible to doublejump over the Devil, right? If so, he should've done so with the fast spell on. The detour to save at the end does cost 30 seconds or so for a round trip, but that is a worthy price to pay.

Segment 12 -- Two empty frames on Dracula before he gets a big bone (I hardly think that 7 damage from the whip is going to change things any). At the very least, once he realized he wasn't going to get the big bone on the first frame, he should've switched to Diana+Griffin to get some damage in.

He opens the second form with an empty frame, and on the easiest attack to avoid, no less. I can let it slide, because at this point, asking for perfect luck is asking to TAS. Though, he should have used the trick to get double damage on the first hit, a normal big bone on the second, and ended with a double damage bone.

On the third form, he once again fails to damage it for a round. But on the next round, he gets the double bone.

Overall, execution is definitely better than the previous run, and mistakes are fewer in between. But still, this run has some glaring errors that I just can't look away from. The fact that he doesn't manipulate luck more and actually take advantage of all the extra segmentation tells me that this run was, in fact, rushed to completion once I mentioned the summon climb trick.

Based on Uyama's previous track record, I predict this run will be accepted, just like the last one. I can segue from that into a rant about not accepting things just because they're 10 minutes faster, but I'll hold back. I'll just say I reject this run as well, and I PLEAD that the runner actually puts time into an improved run soon. I can tell he has the ability; what he needs is dedication and a more critical eye for sloppiness.


Quote:
Ah, the trick with the skeleton and the big bone on early bosses. Why didn't I think of that earlier. The vulnerability of Nathan in skeleton form justifies the many segments... The only weird thing about segmentation were the first few segments, could've been a single one, but I don't complain since they were all, well, fast. Impressive glitch in the Underground Waterway, didn't even know about it! Overall quite a neat improvement over the old run / submission.

No cheating once again, really good audio and video quality.

Accepted.


Yep, it's accepted, and everyone is happy except for one verifier.
You got a deletion wish?
Yeah, it's the chapel.

Are all 5 modes going to be separate categories or just VK (standard), Mag (this) and Fig (no DSS)?  For some reason I'm thinking no on Shooter and Thief since they're pretty much like VK except for crappier stats (Shooter has high amount of hearts, emphasis on using sub-weapons; Thief has high luck stat)
Master-88
Time sounds nice.

But Dracula fight was incredible sloppy. Especially when he saved before it and he have rough luck with bones. I´ll need watch this run this looks it beat my brother time by some seconds, but my brother Dracula fight was a lot faster than this and he not use even save point before Dracula.
Speedrunner and highscore player
I checked some first segments on your run. I must say at first that this is really amazing trick you found to skip chapel, I didn´t knew that trick before, it´s main reason (and only reason why you got better time than my record), otherwise I was bit disappointed to your run, I waited that your record is something like perfect, but it wasn´t  Undecided After Iron Golem I´m leading 34 seconds to your time, which is quite much, and your Dracula fight was not maybe best possible, because you use still save before. You use absolutely too much saves in this run and you don´t do still enough perfect bosses, it made me bit disappointed too  Sad

I might try this trick soon, and if I get this trick working, I maybe try break your run and try get it to this site, I can absolutely get about 1-2 minutes better time if I try, my record now is 21.45 (when I press start after Dracula died, without chapel skip, which is unofficial world record)