My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Battletoads.html
2-player PAL run and Chris Foreman's warpless run
Verifier Responses
Warpless run verification
2p PAL run verification
Decision:
Warpless: Accept
2p PAL: Reject
Reason:
Warpless: It's an improvement over the current run. Yes, the runner misses the rat boot, but so does the current warpless run.
2P PAL: Wrong warp order and the run isn't optimized for 2-players.
I do have the 2-player PAL run available for anyone who wants to watch it. PM me for the link.
2-player PAL run and Chris Foreman's warpless run
Verifier Responses
Warpless run verification
Quote:
Battletoads NES - Warpless
Video-Audio: Video is fine for verification standards and I'm sure will be better upon final encode if it's accepted. There are some notable problems with audio however. Stereo image gets distorted quite a bit (first example right off the bat during the rappelling form the ship cutscene) and there is a lot of noise in the audio recording. I would rate the audio quality of this as 6/10.
Cheating: none.
Synopsis:
Level 1 - well done.
Level 2 - a few small misses, maybe totalling three seconds or so. Overall well done.
Level 3 - Can't imagine it getting much faster than this.
Level 4 - In spite of the runner's comments about passive play, there are some impressive risks taken and they pay off. Highlight of the run.
Level 5 - Walker got the best of you, but nothing big. Blag fight is good, if a teeny bit conservative.
Level 6 - Outside of taking a little time at the first hole exit this is pretty much optimal. Glad to see you're having a little fun.
Level 7 - A few tiny slips before the rocket and then of course smooth sailing.
Level 8 - Very well done! Robbed at the end at Robo Manus and I think you lose your nerve a little bit afterwards but still a good fight and a great level.
Level 9 - Risks with the spikes paid off.
Level 10 - Oooohhh boy. Now, I'm really, really torn. Early level end is missed by an unfortunate miss of the bomb making the rat boot impossible, and while the next two races aren't bad, they along with the boss fight (which is also very unlucky) add on 2:20 of time to the run. Is that a deal breaker after such a great run leading up to this point? THAT is a question for the ages…
Level 11 - Very good except for the orb, which really doesn't start out so well (as you point out.)
Level 12 - Nicely done, with the occasional forgetting of when to jump to scroll up and trigger the next sequence. Close call with the 2nd red rhino! One marginal delay at the missed jump on the springboards. Queen fight is not terrific, lots of deaths.
Pros - Extremely thorough knowledge of game, top marks for preparation, stellar (I would say almost untouchable) execution of the "platforming" segments and a level of risky play that goes for the balls.
Cons - RAT RACE. The unfortunate reality is that by missing the rat boot it eliminates what is probably the most singular time-saver in the game. Boss fights generally are also not so hot. Sound quality is acceptable but is far from great.
Verdict: (and this is after a long, long deliberation) Reject.
I want to sincerely apologize to the runner for giving this verdict, because I think this run is extremely exciting, entertaining, and skillful. I'm really, really sorry. You show almost total and dominating mastery over a game that is generally considered to be brutally unfair and difficult. I think you're amazing.
My main issue, which I myself have been stung by recently, is that the single greatest time saving maneuver doesn't happen. And it was just a simple overcalculation of the bomb boot, I KNOW, just shitty luck, and it kills me to be negative about missing out on that. The boss fights, the sound quality, they didn't tip the scales really, it's mostly the fact that the rat skip didn't work. It sucks that it happens so far into the run, and I feel like a coldhearted bastard for saying no, but I do believe that that skip needs to happen in order for an accept. You could have played super sloppy, unbelievably sloppy, made the rat skip and still have come out ahead by a full minute on your time. Yes, the time is 45 seconds better than the existing run. The only thing is, right now I'm looking at "Battletoads No Warps 33:34" and all I can think about is "31:10." And it makes me feel like a total douchebag to shit on this otherwise amazing run as the result of a simple missed boot. I hate having to be that guy.
You've proven the existing run can be obsoleted, and by virtue of that, it should. I want you to beat that time very badly, you're definitely the person to do it. And if I'm the only verifier who feels this way and this run gets published, then we'll all get to see a great run.
With respect
Video-Audio: Video is fine for verification standards and I'm sure will be better upon final encode if it's accepted. There are some notable problems with audio however. Stereo image gets distorted quite a bit (first example right off the bat during the rappelling form the ship cutscene) and there is a lot of noise in the audio recording. I would rate the audio quality of this as 6/10.
Cheating: none.
Synopsis:
Level 1 - well done.
Level 2 - a few small misses, maybe totalling three seconds or so. Overall well done.
Level 3 - Can't imagine it getting much faster than this.
Level 4 - In spite of the runner's comments about passive play, there are some impressive risks taken and they pay off. Highlight of the run.
Level 5 - Walker got the best of you, but nothing big. Blag fight is good, if a teeny bit conservative.
Level 6 - Outside of taking a little time at the first hole exit this is pretty much optimal. Glad to see you're having a little fun.
Level 7 - A few tiny slips before the rocket and then of course smooth sailing.
Level 8 - Very well done! Robbed at the end at Robo Manus and I think you lose your nerve a little bit afterwards but still a good fight and a great level.
Level 9 - Risks with the spikes paid off.
Level 10 - Oooohhh boy. Now, I'm really, really torn. Early level end is missed by an unfortunate miss of the bomb making the rat boot impossible, and while the next two races aren't bad, they along with the boss fight (which is also very unlucky) add on 2:20 of time to the run. Is that a deal breaker after such a great run leading up to this point? THAT is a question for the ages…
Level 11 - Very good except for the orb, which really doesn't start out so well (as you point out.)
Level 12 - Nicely done, with the occasional forgetting of when to jump to scroll up and trigger the next sequence. Close call with the 2nd red rhino! One marginal delay at the missed jump on the springboards. Queen fight is not terrific, lots of deaths.
Pros - Extremely thorough knowledge of game, top marks for preparation, stellar (I would say almost untouchable) execution of the "platforming" segments and a level of risky play that goes for the balls.
Cons - RAT RACE. The unfortunate reality is that by missing the rat boot it eliminates what is probably the most singular time-saver in the game. Boss fights generally are also not so hot. Sound quality is acceptable but is far from great.
Verdict: (and this is after a long, long deliberation) Reject.
I want to sincerely apologize to the runner for giving this verdict, because I think this run is extremely exciting, entertaining, and skillful. I'm really, really sorry. You show almost total and dominating mastery over a game that is generally considered to be brutally unfair and difficult. I think you're amazing.
My main issue, which I myself have been stung by recently, is that the single greatest time saving maneuver doesn't happen. And it was just a simple overcalculation of the bomb boot, I KNOW, just shitty luck, and it kills me to be negative about missing out on that. The boss fights, the sound quality, they didn't tip the scales really, it's mostly the fact that the rat skip didn't work. It sucks that it happens so far into the run, and I feel like a coldhearted bastard for saying no, but I do believe that that skip needs to happen in order for an accept. You could have played super sloppy, unbelievably sloppy, made the rat skip and still have come out ahead by a full minute on your time. Yes, the time is 45 seconds better than the existing run. The only thing is, right now I'm looking at "Battletoads No Warps 33:34" and all I can think about is "31:10." And it makes me feel like a total douchebag to shit on this otherwise amazing run as the result of a simple missed boot. I hate having to be that guy.
You've proven the existing run can be obsoleted, and by virtue of that, it should. I want you to beat that time very badly, you're definitely the person to do it. And if I'm the only verifier who feels this way and this run gets published, then we'll all get to see a great run.
With respect
Quote:
Gameplay
--------
I made a rough level-by-level comparison between the current and the new run to see where the time was saved.
Level 1: 4-5 seconds gained by cleaning up some of the mistakes in the previous run.
Level 2: 3-4 seconds lost. The scrolling stopped in a few places by not taking out the enemies as soon as possible.
Level 3: 9 seconds gained. Half of the level is an autoscroller, but the first half with the beat-em up was much cleaner.
Level 4: 6 seconds gained. More aggresive here and there payed off. Still one or two execution mistakes costing a couple of seconds.
Level 5: Mostly autoscroller, but still 3-4 seconds lost. The runner screwed up against the stilt robot (or whatever...).
Level 6: Viewer discretion advised here. Lots of humping between toads and snakes, which everyone should know is not natural by any means. This is really not what we want to educate our kids with. Anyways, 1 second gained. The previous run messed up the exiting of the first room, but caught up a little bit with a riskier exit in room 3 (if I counted the rooms correctly).
Level 7: The runner got tossed around by some mean rats and ended up losing 3 seconds. The runner also mentioned more time to be saved with better preparations, but it looked fine to me (except for the mistake).
Level 8: Mostly good and aggresive playing up to Robomanus (the way we like it
), which brings the new run around 20 seconds ahead (the old run had an ugly death though). In the end, the new run is 13-14 seconds faster after some trouble with getting the combos going on Robomanus and we also have the first death of the run.
Level 9: Woooshhh... Watching this makes me feel all warm inside. Extremely aggresive playing with new risky shortcuts and everything well executed in this very tricky level. Around 17 seconds faster than the old run. Hands down, the highlight of the run.
Level 10: Both the new and the old run had a couple of misses, but the new run is still a second or two faster with the rat races. That was however lost against General Slaughter for an end result of around two seconds lost plus one death added to the count. Some time could undoubtely have been saved by less mistakes, but I think that's only of academic interest since I assume that any future improvements will include the Scuzz boot (or at least I hope so).
Level 11: 4 or 5 seconds faster boss fight. Apparently punching and throwing the hypno orb like the old run was not the way to go...
Level 12: A few mistakes in both runs, but overall good platforming. Both runs arrive at the Dark Queen almost exactly at the same time. More aggresive combos and better luck with Dark Queen's movements, the new run ends up 9-10 seconds ahead.
Summary
-------
So roughly 45-50 seconds better than the old run. Mostly because of more aggresive playing, better platforming, a touch better luck and some nice risky shortcuts. So basically better than the old run in every way. I'd say that very roughly a minute more could be shaved off with great execution and luck (without including the Scuzz boot). However, this is a pretty badass game (as I'm sure everyone knows), so I'd be surprised if anyone would get that low. Speedruns of Battletoads are awesome and improvements are always welcome. While this is no doubt a great effort and an entertaining watch, I'll save the "A+" mention for the day I'll see a run with the Scuzz boot and without deaths.
Until then...
ACCEPT
--------
I made a rough level-by-level comparison between the current and the new run to see where the time was saved.
Level 1: 4-5 seconds gained by cleaning up some of the mistakes in the previous run.
Level 2: 3-4 seconds lost. The scrolling stopped in a few places by not taking out the enemies as soon as possible.
Level 3: 9 seconds gained. Half of the level is an autoscroller, but the first half with the beat-em up was much cleaner.
Level 4: 6 seconds gained. More aggresive here and there payed off. Still one or two execution mistakes costing a couple of seconds.
Level 5: Mostly autoscroller, but still 3-4 seconds lost. The runner screwed up against the stilt robot (or whatever...).
Level 6: Viewer discretion advised here. Lots of humping between toads and snakes, which everyone should know is not natural by any means. This is really not what we want to educate our kids with. Anyways, 1 second gained. The previous run messed up the exiting of the first room, but caught up a little bit with a riskier exit in room 3 (if I counted the rooms correctly).
Level 7: The runner got tossed around by some mean rats and ended up losing 3 seconds. The runner also mentioned more time to be saved with better preparations, but it looked fine to me (except for the mistake).
Level 8: Mostly good and aggresive playing up to Robomanus (the way we like it
Level 9: Woooshhh... Watching this makes me feel all warm inside. Extremely aggresive playing with new risky shortcuts and everything well executed in this very tricky level. Around 17 seconds faster than the old run. Hands down, the highlight of the run.
Level 10: Both the new and the old run had a couple of misses, but the new run is still a second or two faster with the rat races. That was however lost against General Slaughter for an end result of around two seconds lost plus one death added to the count. Some time could undoubtely have been saved by less mistakes, but I think that's only of academic interest since I assume that any future improvements will include the Scuzz boot (or at least I hope so).
Level 11: 4 or 5 seconds faster boss fight. Apparently punching and throwing the hypno orb like the old run was not the way to go...
Level 12: A few mistakes in both runs, but overall good platforming. Both runs arrive at the Dark Queen almost exactly at the same time. More aggresive combos and better luck with Dark Queen's movements, the new run ends up 9-10 seconds ahead.
Summary
-------
So roughly 45-50 seconds better than the old run. Mostly because of more aggresive playing, better platforming, a touch better luck and some nice risky shortcuts. So basically better than the old run in every way. I'd say that very roughly a minute more could be shaved off with great execution and luck (without including the Scuzz boot). However, this is a pretty badass game (as I'm sure everyone knows), so I'd be surprised if anyone would get that low. Speedruns of Battletoads are awesome and improvements are always welcome. While this is no doubt a great effort and an entertaining watch, I'll save the "A+" mention for the day I'll see a run with the Scuzz boot and without deaths.
ACCEPT
Quote:
Audio/Video stuff: Looks good to me.
Cheating? Not from what I can tell. Looks perfectly legit.
(I am addressing these comments to the author, not to Mike or anybody else. Note that "you" = "the author")
Since I am not a fan of anonymity, I will say that I am PJ. I have a lot of experience with running this game, so I can definitely relate to your comments and mistakes. You know where your mistakes were for the most part, and the other verifiers already made a comparisan between this video and the previous run, level by level, so I don't really have anything else to contribute there. I do want to mention some things that I think were overlooked though, and share some of my strategies for these levels just in case you want to rerun this in the future (before I myself run this, at least).
First of all, there are some attack choices I don't really agree with. Maybe in the course of the entire run it costs 6-7 seconds, but it is still worth mentioning. The slowest attack in the entire game is the boot. It has more wind-up and cooldown than all of the other attacks in the game (except for when it is a standing finisher, like in level 7 & 8 and the boss battles). The headbutt is faster than the boot, and the fastest attacks are the standing finishers and a stick swing. Whenever practical, you want to choose the faster attacks. I'll point those out in the level-by-level notes.
I am quite sure you know this, but if you are dashing you can do a standing attack by just releasing the dpad. Even if you are moving at dash speeds, the 'Toad won't headbutt unless you are still holding forward. Some time can be saved in level 7 by using this to attack with the standing finishers (or the weak punch) instead of the headbutt, especially when the headbutt sends you away from another target. It seems miniscule, but it really does add up and is not difficult to do.
That being said, let's talk about these levels:
Level 1:
It is easier for me to just make a video showing my intended route than to try to describe it:
This route is only ~3 seconds faster than your level, mostly because I think I kill the first walker slower than you since I waited for him to recover so I could headbutt him. Maybe not the best choice. It does remove his skull from the battlefield though, so I don't end up targetting it by accident later. Whatever. Anyways, note how I finish every enemy with a headbutt instead of the boot, and try to finish every enemy to the right so I don't have to backtrack at all. Again, this is just a minor suggestion.
Boss kill looks good. No problems there.
Level 2:
Thanks for showing me how badly I need to practice this level. ^_^ It looks very good to me. One of the verifiers mentioned you lost time compared to the current run, but it still looks very good. I'm not complaining.
Level 3:
Looks good to me. You lose "manliness" points for not playing at the far right side of the screen, but it obviously doesn't matter with regards to your time. The only legit warning I have for you here is to make sure you're hitting the checkpoints at the far right side of the screen each time. I know you did for most of them, and it doesn't really save much time anyways, but it does save a little time.
Level 4:
You can definitely save some time by being more aggressive. There are a few places where you can save 1-2 seconds (first barrier, the zigzag hill with the snowballs rolling down, the other barrier where you got hit), but you know about those already. There's one time saver that wasn't mentioned, but there's likely a good reason for that: it's damn hard. In the checkpoint with the barrier that needs to be broken by snowballs after the spike pit and moving platform, it is possible to get to the landing a few seconds (3 or so) sooner. The snowman will throw snowballs sooner and it'll break earlier. This requires a short dash jump from the edge of the platform before the icicle falls, and holding down once you get to the icicle. After you land on the platform, you have to jump pretty much immediately to the landing, otherwise it'll moev too far away. It's really tricky, but it does save time. Just something to consider in the future.
Overall, this level is very good still.
Level 5:
Yea, minor slip up against the walker. No big deal. There are only two other improvements I have to mention here: First, use the headbutt against the second walker instead of the boot by just pressing attack a little bit sooner. Second, tank a hit against a log and then lose 2 bits of health from the whirlpools so all the space invaders will just fly overhead. It is much faster than trying to fight them and reclaim your health. Playing the level with 1 health is not a concern either, since 1 hit is death in this level, except for the walkers and Blag. If Blag hits you, you're likely dead regardless so this is even faster. I suggest you try it if you redo this in the future.
Nice job on Blag and the mines.
Level 6:
Not sure why you didn't do the death skip at the end. There is literally no risk at all with that trick. I have not missed that in 2 years of playing.
Level 7:
Standing finishers > headbutt against the rats to the left. Very nice log jumping, though! I mess that up a surprising amount. Just for the record, it is faster to dash jump across that gap than it is to use the logs, but even I don't dare try that in a real run and I play with relentless aggression.
Level 8:
The beginning jumps through the 'conveyer' things can be done slightly faster, but it also usually triggers a game over glitch against Robo Manus so I definitely don't hold that against you.
I think this is your most impressive level. The fight with Robo Manus is very impressive to me. I am not nearly as proficient with the juggles, and I haven't beaten him with only 1 death in a very long time. The level itself was as fast as possible, as far as I know (with the exception of the first few jumps). Great work here!
Level 9:
This is where things change for me. See, this is my favorite level in the entire game and when I downloaded this, I immediately skipped here to see what you decided to do for a route. This level has, by far, the most route variation. It can be tailored so much to match your level of aggression and risk. It really is a remarkable level. That being said, here is a link to a video of my intended route through this level:
As I said before, I play with extreme aggression and no fear, and I understand the need to play it a bit safer during a warpless run in particular. However, my video is close to 30 seconds faster. That's very significant.
I obviously didn't expect to see these strategies in the video because of how risky they can be and because I also didn't make my strats public until now, but if you redo this run someday, you should definitely check it out. The time savings come from the first and last checkpoints in particular. It can actually be run 5-15 seconds faster than my video through some super risky tactics in the final checkpoint with a success rate so low that it would make even the most reckless gambler cringe. This level also has an unreal amount of very nasty run-ending glitches that pop up if you try some of those alternate strats, but I would still definitely try them.
All that aside, you did a very good job of running this level. There was minimal hesitation on all of those tricks and shortcuts, which takes a lot of confidence for being so late in the run. Of all of your levels though, this one has the most room for improvement.
Level 10:
Missed the rat boot. Yes, it cost a lot of time. Yes, it is a shame. Is it worth a rejection? Absolutely not. It is a somewhat picky trick that falls late in the run, and you even use a riskier setup than I do in my runs. I absolutely do not blame you for missing that. I can totally relate to that situation, because I missed that a few times when going after your any% time.
You recovered well, but had a slip up on General Slaughter. It's always painful to see that.
Level 11:
This is the most disappointing level for me personally. There is so much time that can be cut from this boss battle just from a better strategy and more aggression. I have not timed my own battle, but I am pretty confident that I can cut at least 15 seconds off of this time. During his first pattern, it is faster to trap him on the right side, because you can headbutt him more frequently there. It does require waiting for a second or two so he can get to that side, but it is definitely faster and more consistent. During the second phase, it is very easy to headbutt him during his super jump. Very easy. When he super jumps, run to the far left and time the headbutt to hit him to the right as he is falling. You can follow it up with 3-4 more headbutts so he is in the corner, and then just repeat. This boss is extremely easy with practice and has pretty much no variation with his pattern.
I do understand that it is late into a great run, but I believe that battle is the largest single mistake in this run with the exception of the rat miss.
Level 12:
There are a lot of time savers in this level, which I am sure you are aware of. I myself have not decided which ones are valuable to attempt so late into a run, but they are definitely there.
First off, the yellow rhinos can be killed faster. The two options I see here are to either hit them with the stick and boot them, or still kill him solely with the stick but dashing to him between each hit like I mentioned before the level-by-level notes. The boot is somewhat tough to do, but nothing unreasonable. At the very least, if you are concerned about safety you can still kill with the stick while dashing. It will save a few seconds total and not put you in harm's way at all.
The second green cloud can be killed faster, too. I used to hate trying to fight him since I never had a plan, but I have since found a way to do it. When he first dives at you, run straight for the spring, and headbutt him just to the side of it. Then just jump on the spring and kill him quickly with jump-swings. Once on the way up, once on the way back down. It works surprisingly well and is not too hard. Even so, I've messed it up in runs just because nerves prevent me from doing so, so your approach might be the better way to do it in a real run under pressure.
The spring section is the major flaw of this level, as I'm sure you are aware. Even without the missed jump, it is still 10 seconds slower than just jumping straight away. I often mess this up, even during practice, so I usually jump immediately for the first three springs and then wait one revolution for the final spring, which I find much more consistent. That's still 5 seconds faster than waiting for both springs.
On a brighter note, I am very very impressed by the way you handle the red rhinos and the final jumps with the yellow cloud. The red rhinos are extremely intimidating normally, so the fact that you just rushed them down is very impressive. I need to practice that now. Haha. That last section with the cloud was done without any hesitation which is also pretty ballsy. I wait awhile to make sure I control where he is, so again I am impressed.
Everything else I mentioned was great too, of course, but it didn't stand out like those points. As I'm sure you've guessed, there's a solid list of shortcuts and improvements if you can dash jump consistently under pressure in the middle of the best run of your life. We both know that the odds of a human being able to do that are pretty slim, so I won't even waste your time mentioning them.
Level 13!
Pretty reasonable Dark Queen fight. You can hit her more frequently with some air headbutts, but again that's a stupid thing to expect in a run.
Verdict: ACCEPT.
"But PJ, he missed the rat boot." Well yea, but so did the current run. This run has significantly faster gameplay throughout and is extremely entertaining. It is also deathless (minus the bosses because they don't count). There is absolutely no reason for this to NOT obsolete the current run. There is plenty of room for improvement still, but it's Battletoads so chances are we won't ever see a perfect run. Congrats on a great run, runner!
Cheating? Not from what I can tell. Looks perfectly legit.
(I am addressing these comments to the author, not to Mike or anybody else. Note that "you" = "the author")
Since I am not a fan of anonymity, I will say that I am PJ. I have a lot of experience with running this game, so I can definitely relate to your comments and mistakes. You know where your mistakes were for the most part, and the other verifiers already made a comparisan between this video and the previous run, level by level, so I don't really have anything else to contribute there. I do want to mention some things that I think were overlooked though, and share some of my strategies for these levels just in case you want to rerun this in the future (before I myself run this, at least).
First of all, there are some attack choices I don't really agree with. Maybe in the course of the entire run it costs 6-7 seconds, but it is still worth mentioning. The slowest attack in the entire game is the boot. It has more wind-up and cooldown than all of the other attacks in the game (except for when it is a standing finisher, like in level 7 & 8 and the boss battles). The headbutt is faster than the boot, and the fastest attacks are the standing finishers and a stick swing. Whenever practical, you want to choose the faster attacks. I'll point those out in the level-by-level notes.
I am quite sure you know this, but if you are dashing you can do a standing attack by just releasing the dpad. Even if you are moving at dash speeds, the 'Toad won't headbutt unless you are still holding forward. Some time can be saved in level 7 by using this to attack with the standing finishers (or the weak punch) instead of the headbutt, especially when the headbutt sends you away from another target. It seems miniscule, but it really does add up and is not difficult to do.
That being said, let's talk about these levels:
Level 1:
It is easier for me to just make a video showing my intended route than to try to describe it:
This route is only ~3 seconds faster than your level, mostly because I think I kill the first walker slower than you since I waited for him to recover so I could headbutt him. Maybe not the best choice. It does remove his skull from the battlefield though, so I don't end up targetting it by accident later. Whatever. Anyways, note how I finish every enemy with a headbutt instead of the boot, and try to finish every enemy to the right so I don't have to backtrack at all. Again, this is just a minor suggestion.
Boss kill looks good. No problems there.
Level 2:
Thanks for showing me how badly I need to practice this level. ^_^ It looks very good to me. One of the verifiers mentioned you lost time compared to the current run, but it still looks very good. I'm not complaining.
Level 3:
Looks good to me. You lose "manliness" points for not playing at the far right side of the screen, but it obviously doesn't matter with regards to your time. The only legit warning I have for you here is to make sure you're hitting the checkpoints at the far right side of the screen each time. I know you did for most of them, and it doesn't really save much time anyways, but it does save a little time.
Level 4:
You can definitely save some time by being more aggressive. There are a few places where you can save 1-2 seconds (first barrier, the zigzag hill with the snowballs rolling down, the other barrier where you got hit), but you know about those already. There's one time saver that wasn't mentioned, but there's likely a good reason for that: it's damn hard. In the checkpoint with the barrier that needs to be broken by snowballs after the spike pit and moving platform, it is possible to get to the landing a few seconds (3 or so) sooner. The snowman will throw snowballs sooner and it'll break earlier. This requires a short dash jump from the edge of the platform before the icicle falls, and holding down once you get to the icicle. After you land on the platform, you have to jump pretty much immediately to the landing, otherwise it'll moev too far away. It's really tricky, but it does save time. Just something to consider in the future.
Overall, this level is very good still.
Level 5:
Yea, minor slip up against the walker. No big deal. There are only two other improvements I have to mention here: First, use the headbutt against the second walker instead of the boot by just pressing attack a little bit sooner. Second, tank a hit against a log and then lose 2 bits of health from the whirlpools so all the space invaders will just fly overhead. It is much faster than trying to fight them and reclaim your health. Playing the level with 1 health is not a concern either, since 1 hit is death in this level, except for the walkers and Blag. If Blag hits you, you're likely dead regardless so this is even faster. I suggest you try it if you redo this in the future.
Nice job on Blag and the mines.
Level 6:
Not sure why you didn't do the death skip at the end. There is literally no risk at all with that trick. I have not missed that in 2 years of playing.
Level 7:
Standing finishers > headbutt against the rats to the left. Very nice log jumping, though! I mess that up a surprising amount. Just for the record, it is faster to dash jump across that gap than it is to use the logs, but even I don't dare try that in a real run and I play with relentless aggression.
Level 8:
The beginning jumps through the 'conveyer' things can be done slightly faster, but it also usually triggers a game over glitch against Robo Manus so I definitely don't hold that against you.
I think this is your most impressive level. The fight with Robo Manus is very impressive to me. I am not nearly as proficient with the juggles, and I haven't beaten him with only 1 death in a very long time. The level itself was as fast as possible, as far as I know (with the exception of the first few jumps). Great work here!
Level 9:
This is where things change for me. See, this is my favorite level in the entire game and when I downloaded this, I immediately skipped here to see what you decided to do for a route. This level has, by far, the most route variation. It can be tailored so much to match your level of aggression and risk. It really is a remarkable level. That being said, here is a link to a video of my intended route through this level:
As I said before, I play with extreme aggression and no fear, and I understand the need to play it a bit safer during a warpless run in particular. However, my video is close to 30 seconds faster. That's very significant.
I obviously didn't expect to see these strategies in the video because of how risky they can be and because I also didn't make my strats public until now, but if you redo this run someday, you should definitely check it out. The time savings come from the first and last checkpoints in particular. It can actually be run 5-15 seconds faster than my video through some super risky tactics in the final checkpoint with a success rate so low that it would make even the most reckless gambler cringe. This level also has an unreal amount of very nasty run-ending glitches that pop up if you try some of those alternate strats, but I would still definitely try them.
All that aside, you did a very good job of running this level. There was minimal hesitation on all of those tricks and shortcuts, which takes a lot of confidence for being so late in the run. Of all of your levels though, this one has the most room for improvement.
Level 10:
Missed the rat boot. Yes, it cost a lot of time. Yes, it is a shame. Is it worth a rejection? Absolutely not. It is a somewhat picky trick that falls late in the run, and you even use a riskier setup than I do in my runs. I absolutely do not blame you for missing that. I can totally relate to that situation, because I missed that a few times when going after your any% time.
You recovered well, but had a slip up on General Slaughter. It's always painful to see that.
Level 11:
This is the most disappointing level for me personally. There is so much time that can be cut from this boss battle just from a better strategy and more aggression. I have not timed my own battle, but I am pretty confident that I can cut at least 15 seconds off of this time. During his first pattern, it is faster to trap him on the right side, because you can headbutt him more frequently there. It does require waiting for a second or two so he can get to that side, but it is definitely faster and more consistent. During the second phase, it is very easy to headbutt him during his super jump. Very easy. When he super jumps, run to the far left and time the headbutt to hit him to the right as he is falling. You can follow it up with 3-4 more headbutts so he is in the corner, and then just repeat. This boss is extremely easy with practice and has pretty much no variation with his pattern.
I do understand that it is late into a great run, but I believe that battle is the largest single mistake in this run with the exception of the rat miss.
Level 12:
There are a lot of time savers in this level, which I am sure you are aware of. I myself have not decided which ones are valuable to attempt so late into a run, but they are definitely there.
First off, the yellow rhinos can be killed faster. The two options I see here are to either hit them with the stick and boot them, or still kill him solely with the stick but dashing to him between each hit like I mentioned before the level-by-level notes. The boot is somewhat tough to do, but nothing unreasonable. At the very least, if you are concerned about safety you can still kill with the stick while dashing. It will save a few seconds total and not put you in harm's way at all.
The second green cloud can be killed faster, too. I used to hate trying to fight him since I never had a plan, but I have since found a way to do it. When he first dives at you, run straight for the spring, and headbutt him just to the side of it. Then just jump on the spring and kill him quickly with jump-swings. Once on the way up, once on the way back down. It works surprisingly well and is not too hard. Even so, I've messed it up in runs just because nerves prevent me from doing so, so your approach might be the better way to do it in a real run under pressure.
The spring section is the major flaw of this level, as I'm sure you are aware. Even without the missed jump, it is still 10 seconds slower than just jumping straight away. I often mess this up, even during practice, so I usually jump immediately for the first three springs and then wait one revolution for the final spring, which I find much more consistent. That's still 5 seconds faster than waiting for both springs.
On a brighter note, I am very very impressed by the way you handle the red rhinos and the final jumps with the yellow cloud. The red rhinos are extremely intimidating normally, so the fact that you just rushed them down is very impressive. I need to practice that now. Haha. That last section with the cloud was done without any hesitation which is also pretty ballsy. I wait awhile to make sure I control where he is, so again I am impressed.
Everything else I mentioned was great too, of course, but it didn't stand out like those points. As I'm sure you've guessed, there's a solid list of shortcuts and improvements if you can dash jump consistently under pressure in the middle of the best run of your life. We both know that the odds of a human being able to do that are pretty slim, so I won't even waste your time mentioning them.
Level 13!
Pretty reasonable Dark Queen fight. You can hit her more frequently with some air headbutts, but again that's a stupid thing to expect in a run.
Verdict: ACCEPT.
"But PJ, he missed the rat boot." Well yea, but so did the current run. This run has significantly faster gameplay throughout and is extremely entertaining. It is also deathless (minus the bosses because they don't count). There is absolutely no reason for this to NOT obsolete the current run. There is plenty of room for improvement still, but it's Battletoads so chances are we won't ever see a perfect run. Congrats on a great run, runner!
2p PAL run verification
Quote:
I'm not sure I'm able to verify since I don't have anyone to play this game 2p with. Or I would need some comments from either the runners or the other verifiers regarding a couple of things I noticed in the run. By just watching and comparing with the 1p warped run, this looks to be quite a lot slower if converted to NTSC-timing.
- Level 3. Isn't it possible to use some coop strat against some of the rats ? Like one player knocks the rat down, while the other prepares a finishing move or something ?
- Level 5. Wouldn't it be faster to use some coop strat and knock Blarg back and forth between the players ? The TAS uses an almost instant kill. It just looks like the TAS is setting up for a finishing move by beating up player 2, but saves the move for the boss. Is that feasible on console ?
- Level 8. There is no way that was a fast completion of the level. Is it really normal that a 2p warp run is that much slower than a 1p no-warp run ?
- Level 9. The recent no-warp run was ages faster. Beating most of the enemies instead of jumping over, not using shortcuts and slowing down before every cog wheel race. Is it really normal that a 2p warp run is that much slower than a 1p no-warp run ?
- Level 11. Boss strategy ? Can I get some more comments on why this method was used ?
- Level 12. Waiting on every spring. Necessary ? Would it be possible to coop the rhinos ?
- Level 13 (Dark Queen). I'm sorry to say this, but it seems like the current sda run is timed until the screen turns black and the end cut scene starts. That would make this run "with deaths". It might be a technicality, but I believe the Dark Queen could have been dealt with faster if the runners had taken more risks and tried to get more hits while she was in her "tornado" phase.
I stress that most of the above are just big question marks for me. I'd instinctively go for a rejection since the current 1p runs seem to be faster. However, if there are convincing reasons for doing like it's done in the run, I'd be interested to hear about it.
- Level 3. Isn't it possible to use some coop strat against some of the rats ? Like one player knocks the rat down, while the other prepares a finishing move or something ?
- Level 5. Wouldn't it be faster to use some coop strat and knock Blarg back and forth between the players ? The TAS uses an almost instant kill. It just looks like the TAS is setting up for a finishing move by beating up player 2, but saves the move for the boss. Is that feasible on console ?
- Level 8. There is no way that was a fast completion of the level. Is it really normal that a 2p warp run is that much slower than a 1p no-warp run ?
- Level 9. The recent no-warp run was ages faster. Beating most of the enemies instead of jumping over, not using shortcuts and slowing down before every cog wheel race. Is it really normal that a 2p warp run is that much slower than a 1p no-warp run ?
- Level 11. Boss strategy ? Can I get some more comments on why this method was used ?
- Level 12. Waiting on every spring. Necessary ? Would it be possible to coop the rhinos ?
- Level 13 (Dark Queen). I'm sorry to say this, but it seems like the current sda run is timed until the screen turns black and the end cut scene starts. That would make this run "with deaths". It might be a technicality, but I believe the Dark Queen could have been dealt with faster if the runners had taken more risks and tried to get more hits while she was in her "tornado" phase.
I stress that most of the above are just big question marks for me. I'd instinctively go for a rejection since the current 1p runs seem to be faster. However, if there are convincing reasons for doing like it's done in the run, I'd be interested to hear about it.
Quote:
Hello Mike,
Verified arguably one of speed running's holy grails, two player nes battletoads (it's close to the top of the want list near nes contra done 2P)
no cheating
visual has a hiccup during the surf level
audio is good
Level 1 - I blinked
Level 3 - Exactly what you'd expect
Level 5 - More of what you'd expect from a mostly auto-scrolling level
Level 6 - As fast as you can go since you have to wait for the slow ass snakes
Level 8 - Somewhat conservative play here. But watching it a second time, it's not too bad. Watching the boss get his salad tossed like that was entertaining.
Level 9 - Some more conservative play here. This level is where I wonder if the runners were prioritizing "no damage" over speed. Hmmm....
Level 10 - That was hot
Level 11 - PAL version FTW. Boss fight was okay. I think we recently established that throwing the orb may not be optimal. Seems like they could have taken advantage of the second toad more.
Level 12 - Some minor bumps here with enemies and such. But this late in the game and with how fickle those tower platforms can be, I'll cut a little slack for a 2P run.
Dark, but hot, Queen - I can't believe how much she gets fisted. Anyway, definite death here, sorry runners. The Queen takes a couple hits after combo'ing that toad before the KO. But this is a speedrun, so it's okay to die... sometimes.
In summary, it's a very clean run, especially considering this is the NES Battletoads and it's 2P. I was kind of on the fence with the slower gameplay in levels 8 and 9 but I'm going to ACCEPT. Congrats to both runners on a pretty studly feat here.
But it does need to be posted "with deaths".
Verified arguably one of speed running's holy grails, two player nes battletoads (it's close to the top of the want list near nes contra done 2P)
no cheating
visual has a hiccup during the surf level
audio is good
Level 1 - I blinked
Level 3 - Exactly what you'd expect
Level 5 - More of what you'd expect from a mostly auto-scrolling level
Level 6 - As fast as you can go since you have to wait for the slow ass snakes
Level 8 - Somewhat conservative play here. But watching it a second time, it's not too bad. Watching the boss get his salad tossed like that was entertaining.
Level 9 - Some more conservative play here. This level is where I wonder if the runners were prioritizing "no damage" over speed. Hmmm....
Level 10 - That was hot
Level 11 - PAL version FTW. Boss fight was okay. I think we recently established that throwing the orb may not be optimal. Seems like they could have taken advantage of the second toad more.
Level 12 - Some minor bumps here with enemies and such. But this late in the game and with how fickle those tower platforms can be, I'll cut a little slack for a 2P run.
Dark, but hot, Queen - I can't believe how much she gets fisted. Anyway, definite death here, sorry runners. The Queen takes a couple hits after combo'ing that toad before the KO. But this is a speedrun, so it's okay to die... sometimes.
In summary, it's a very clean run, especially considering this is the NES Battletoads and it's 2P. I was kind of on the fence with the slower gameplay in levels 8 and 9 but I'm going to ACCEPT. Congrats to both runners on a pretty studly feat here.
But it does need to be posted "with deaths".
Quote:
Hey Mike, I guess here are my comments for this run. I was going to take a lot of time and really go over everything I noticed, but that would take me a few weeks. Really.
Audio/video quality: Video quality is really bad. It is nearly unwatchable for me, and I am not a stickler for video quality at all. In fact, most of my older runs are rather blurry. This is just ridiculous though. Hopefully the final version is higher quality than what we saw. Audio did not sound right at some parts. Perhaps that is a function of the PAL version. I don't know since I haven't played it.
Cheating? There are some things I was questioning while watching this run, but it honestly doesn't even matter to me if they cheated at this point. It clearly didn't help.
Again, I'm going to come right out and say that I am PJ. I first learned this game playing it 2P with my brother because I, at the time, wasn't good enough to beat Rat Race, Clinger Winger, or the final level on my own. After I finally learned the game, he and I still played it 2P several times per day throughout an entire summer. We have done a few "speed runs" since then, but they usually rapidly turn into playarounds since we get tired of reseting. He has since moved 2000 miles away so we can't do this run anymore. Anyways, I am no stranger to running this game 2P, so although I can relate to some of the "coordination" issues the authors mention, I still have a huge list of issues with this run.
Level 1:
The author's claim this is as fast as possible, but that's not quite right. The pigs can be headbutted slightly sooner, and player 1 should have run to the left first so he could headbutt the pig to the right. That way, player 2 doesn't have to wait for the screen to advance to hit the warp.
Level 3:
Why is there so much standing around? My verdict was mostly made up when I saw the beginning of this level, but I continued watching anyways of course. The reason to play this game 2P is to make it fun/entertaining and to show off some really cool enemy killing. There is absolutely no reason for one player to just stand around as the other slowly finishes off a rat. The rats should be killed instantly with 2 players. No excuse to not do so. Any two players with reasonable skill in this game can do that without messing up or hitting each other.
Perhaps the runners should've taken some of the time it took them to coordinate the movements during the speeder bike race to figure out how to kill enemies. Oh, and this was the slowest possible way to finish the race. Hitting the checkpoints on the far right is highly recommended, because it will start the next checkpoint sooner. Waiting at the far left is literally the slowest possible way to finish this level.
I don't think I agree with the choice of warping on level 3. Level 4 is faster then level 5, and far less random. I see no reason to choose to play through level 5, especially if they choose to not do the quick Blag kill.
Level 5:
One player should have tanked a hit off a log and then taken some damage on the whirlpool so the other player can redirect a finishing move off of him into Blag. It's tricky yes, but it's also a speed run. There should be some tricks involved. Of course, this would take away from the "no hit until Dark Queen" point, so the authors maybe deliberately avoided this monumental shortcut for a minor selling point.
Again, the coordination can be much faster when killing those walkers. For the first one, both players can headbutt from either side before the walker even appears, and his legs will go flying everywhere. He is vulnerable slightly before he appears. Even if you don't opt for that, you can both still simultaneously headbutt after he appears and kill him faster.
Level 6:
Fine. Pretty boring for a 2P run, though. Not sure how you can play it with 2 players and not play around more on this stage. It doesn't cost time and looks so much better. I can't hold that against you, but that's just a personal gripe.
Level 8:
Wow. They went so slow at the beginning that they missed the electric barrier and had to stand in place for it to go away. I don't think that has ever happened to me before. Regardless, this level was really slow. I won't even bother pointing out all the ways to speed it up.
Robo-Manus fight was good at least.
Level 9:
This run is 2 minutes slower than my run through this level. 2 minutes. Granted, 30 seconds of those improvements are not really doable with 2 players, but that's still a huge margin. It is not that difficult of a level 2-player. Honestly, it is not. In fact, it is so easy to play with 2 players still, that when my brother and I played we tried to kill each other with the gears by running ahead and not waiting for each other. It ended up working perfectly because we both went as fast as possible. If you really insist on coordinating the actions, use visual cues that are already in place. For example, for the first gear race, start running once the lower person falls from the gyrocopter. Easy. Works every time. There are plenty of ways to coordinate movements without standing in place and counting to three.
The enemies can be killed/avoided much much faster. I just see no effort to incorporate any risk into this run, and it just adds so much time. This is a speed run, not a longplay.
There's one thing that really, really bothers me above all the other mistakes on this level. Considering the amount of experience you two must have playing together to attempt a 2P run of this, you ought to know about some of the common 2P bugs in this level. In particular, the placement of one player on a gyrocopter can frequently make it impossible for the other to grab it. There were two gyrocopters you grabbed that had this position, but luckily the second player was able to grab the copter instead of falling through to his death. Now this could just be a difference with the PAL version, but I doubt it. That's such an easy bug to replicate that my brother and I used to try to trap each other with that to get a good laugh (and also make us go faster so the other person doesn't have time to move to the bad position). Considering how safe the rest of this run is, that REALLY stood out to me. Why kill enemies so slowly to avoid the chance of damage, and then refuse to move out of the way for 1 second to ensure you don't miss the gyrocopter and die? Obviously it didn't cost any time but it is a very peculiar thing that I noticed.
Level 10:
Nice job with the rat boot.
Level 11:
I literally laughed out loud when I read the comments for this level. This boss fight is not "pretty much perfect". In fact, if this was the fight in a run of mine, I would have reset. The best way to fight him is to hit him to the right as you did, and then just keep headbutting him as he tries to rise up. There is no risk at all involved with this pattern. None. When he goes into the second phase, you just pound him. If he does a low jump at you, you headbutt him and then keep headbutting him until he's in the corner. Then let him go. If he does a super jump, just stand in place until the moment when he's about to fall. Then take a quick dash to the side, dash back and headbutt as he falls. Again, very very little risk and it's extremely predictable. If you have the experience to run the level as smoothly as you did, then you should clearly have the experience to know how long a super jump takes and hit him on the way down.
Level 12:
You lose 5 seconds on every single yellow rhino in this level. The correct way to kill them is you have both toads charge at a rhino at the same time, have the leading toad headbutt, and the following toad just runs right through and boots him as he lands. Standing in place and hitting him is the absolute slowest way to kill them with 2 players. If you're concerned about safety again for some reason, then at least dash after him and hit him with the stick. That's about the easiest thing you can do and it'd still save like 12 seconds total for this level.
There's a lot more I can mention about this level, but at least some of the other approaches are understandable considering those jumps are rather tricky with 2 players. The spring jumps do need to be coordinated somehow definitely, so I can excuse pretty much all of those jumps. The enemy killing is just so slow, though.
Level 13:
Player 2 dies. He respawns as Dark Queen is being killed, but the run is still being timed at that point so it doesn't get the deathless label. Sorry.
Verdict: REJECT. The run is just not as polished as it should be for a speed run. Yes, the game is hard 2 player, but it is not that hard. There is no reason to play it so safe throughout the entire run. I saw basically no risky strategies or attempts to save time at all. The riskiest "strategy" I saw was not moving out of the way on the gyrocopters in level 9, and that neither saved time nor was intentional. The run took no damage (apparently excluding the hit in level 6) until the Dark Queen which is cute, but that is actually slower than otherwise.
Also, the video quality made my eyes hurt.
Sorry for being so harsh, but I'm just being honest. I'd love to see these two improve some of their enemy strategies and submit a better run sometime in the future, but this particular run definitely should not be on SDA.
Audio/video quality: Video quality is really bad. It is nearly unwatchable for me, and I am not a stickler for video quality at all. In fact, most of my older runs are rather blurry. This is just ridiculous though. Hopefully the final version is higher quality than what we saw. Audio did not sound right at some parts. Perhaps that is a function of the PAL version. I don't know since I haven't played it.
Cheating? There are some things I was questioning while watching this run, but it honestly doesn't even matter to me if they cheated at this point. It clearly didn't help.
Again, I'm going to come right out and say that I am PJ. I first learned this game playing it 2P with my brother because I, at the time, wasn't good enough to beat Rat Race, Clinger Winger, or the final level on my own. After I finally learned the game, he and I still played it 2P several times per day throughout an entire summer. We have done a few "speed runs" since then, but they usually rapidly turn into playarounds since we get tired of reseting. He has since moved 2000 miles away so we can't do this run anymore. Anyways, I am no stranger to running this game 2P, so although I can relate to some of the "coordination" issues the authors mention, I still have a huge list of issues with this run.
Level 1:
The author's claim this is as fast as possible, but that's not quite right. The pigs can be headbutted slightly sooner, and player 1 should have run to the left first so he could headbutt the pig to the right. That way, player 2 doesn't have to wait for the screen to advance to hit the warp.
Level 3:
Why is there so much standing around? My verdict was mostly made up when I saw the beginning of this level, but I continued watching anyways of course. The reason to play this game 2P is to make it fun/entertaining and to show off some really cool enemy killing. There is absolutely no reason for one player to just stand around as the other slowly finishes off a rat. The rats should be killed instantly with 2 players. No excuse to not do so. Any two players with reasonable skill in this game can do that without messing up or hitting each other.
Perhaps the runners should've taken some of the time it took them to coordinate the movements during the speeder bike race to figure out how to kill enemies. Oh, and this was the slowest possible way to finish the race. Hitting the checkpoints on the far right is highly recommended, because it will start the next checkpoint sooner. Waiting at the far left is literally the slowest possible way to finish this level.
I don't think I agree with the choice of warping on level 3. Level 4 is faster then level 5, and far less random. I see no reason to choose to play through level 5, especially if they choose to not do the quick Blag kill.
Level 5:
One player should have tanked a hit off a log and then taken some damage on the whirlpool so the other player can redirect a finishing move off of him into Blag. It's tricky yes, but it's also a speed run. There should be some tricks involved. Of course, this would take away from the "no hit until Dark Queen" point, so the authors maybe deliberately avoided this monumental shortcut for a minor selling point.
Again, the coordination can be much faster when killing those walkers. For the first one, both players can headbutt from either side before the walker even appears, and his legs will go flying everywhere. He is vulnerable slightly before he appears. Even if you don't opt for that, you can both still simultaneously headbutt after he appears and kill him faster.
Level 6:
Fine. Pretty boring for a 2P run, though. Not sure how you can play it with 2 players and not play around more on this stage. It doesn't cost time and looks so much better. I can't hold that against you, but that's just a personal gripe.
Level 8:
Wow. They went so slow at the beginning that they missed the electric barrier and had to stand in place for it to go away. I don't think that has ever happened to me before. Regardless, this level was really slow. I won't even bother pointing out all the ways to speed it up.
Robo-Manus fight was good at least.
Level 9:
This run is 2 minutes slower than my run through this level. 2 minutes. Granted, 30 seconds of those improvements are not really doable with 2 players, but that's still a huge margin. It is not that difficult of a level 2-player. Honestly, it is not. In fact, it is so easy to play with 2 players still, that when my brother and I played we tried to kill each other with the gears by running ahead and not waiting for each other. It ended up working perfectly because we both went as fast as possible. If you really insist on coordinating the actions, use visual cues that are already in place. For example, for the first gear race, start running once the lower person falls from the gyrocopter. Easy. Works every time. There are plenty of ways to coordinate movements without standing in place and counting to three.
The enemies can be killed/avoided much much faster. I just see no effort to incorporate any risk into this run, and it just adds so much time. This is a speed run, not a longplay.
There's one thing that really, really bothers me above all the other mistakes on this level. Considering the amount of experience you two must have playing together to attempt a 2P run of this, you ought to know about some of the common 2P bugs in this level. In particular, the placement of one player on a gyrocopter can frequently make it impossible for the other to grab it. There were two gyrocopters you grabbed that had this position, but luckily the second player was able to grab the copter instead of falling through to his death. Now this could just be a difference with the PAL version, but I doubt it. That's such an easy bug to replicate that my brother and I used to try to trap each other with that to get a good laugh (and also make us go faster so the other person doesn't have time to move to the bad position). Considering how safe the rest of this run is, that REALLY stood out to me. Why kill enemies so slowly to avoid the chance of damage, and then refuse to move out of the way for 1 second to ensure you don't miss the gyrocopter and die? Obviously it didn't cost any time but it is a very peculiar thing that I noticed.
Level 10:
Nice job with the rat boot.
Level 11:
I literally laughed out loud when I read the comments for this level. This boss fight is not "pretty much perfect". In fact, if this was the fight in a run of mine, I would have reset. The best way to fight him is to hit him to the right as you did, and then just keep headbutting him as he tries to rise up. There is no risk at all involved with this pattern. None. When he goes into the second phase, you just pound him. If he does a low jump at you, you headbutt him and then keep headbutting him until he's in the corner. Then let him go. If he does a super jump, just stand in place until the moment when he's about to fall. Then take a quick dash to the side, dash back and headbutt as he falls. Again, very very little risk and it's extremely predictable. If you have the experience to run the level as smoothly as you did, then you should clearly have the experience to know how long a super jump takes and hit him on the way down.
Level 12:
You lose 5 seconds on every single yellow rhino in this level. The correct way to kill them is you have both toads charge at a rhino at the same time, have the leading toad headbutt, and the following toad just runs right through and boots him as he lands. Standing in place and hitting him is the absolute slowest way to kill them with 2 players. If you're concerned about safety again for some reason, then at least dash after him and hit him with the stick. That's about the easiest thing you can do and it'd still save like 12 seconds total for this level.
There's a lot more I can mention about this level, but at least some of the other approaches are understandable considering those jumps are rather tricky with 2 players. The spring jumps do need to be coordinated somehow definitely, so I can excuse pretty much all of those jumps. The enemy killing is just so slow, though.
Level 13:
Player 2 dies. He respawns as Dark Queen is being killed, but the run is still being timed at that point so it doesn't get the deathless label. Sorry.
Verdict: REJECT. The run is just not as polished as it should be for a speed run. Yes, the game is hard 2 player, but it is not that hard. There is no reason to play it so safe throughout the entire run. I saw basically no risky strategies or attempts to save time at all. The riskiest "strategy" I saw was not moving out of the way on the gyrocopters in level 9, and that neither saved time nor was intentional. The run took no damage (apparently excluding the hit in level 6) until the Dark Queen which is cute, but that is actually slower than otherwise.
Also, the video quality made my eyes hurt.
Sorry for being so harsh, but I'm just being honest. I'd love to see these two improve some of their enemy strategies and submit a better run sometime in the future, but this particular run definitely should not be on SDA.
Quote:
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of 2 player battletoads speedrunning, but I only got as far as the end of the intruder excluder before I stopped writing comments. There is a shocking display of wasted time and missed opportunities for optimized gameplay.
Cheating - Wouldn't matter even if there were.
Audio/Video - Horrific. This is the HQ encode? I suspect some of it has to do with the PAL conversion (all the music is in the wrong key) but there are compression artifacts everywhere. Very difficult to watch. Reject-worthy on this basis alone.
Individual notes:
Level 1 - Headbutts could go faster, but whatever.
Level 3 - What a gargantuan waste of time. Why bother standing still if there are two players to take out the rats faster? And why take this warp when the next one is faster?
Level 5 - Walkers are dealt with by one player at a time. Blag is a wasted opportunity for a fast kill with 2P.
Level 6 - Hard to make this faster but it put me to sleep.
Level 8 - Super slow. So many mistakes. I gave up on writing down comments after this. With one exception: Worst orb boss fight ever in the clinger winger level. That's not "perfect." When a 2P boss fight goes slower than a 1P speedrun, you know you've got problems.
Verdict - Reject. You guys have some talent for sure, but you're not in the right headspace. Step 1 would be watching the 2P TAS which reveals a lot of easy ways to save time which you obviously haven't even considered.
I really don't like to vote to reject a run but this isn't good enough. Think about optimization. Take risks. Figure out the actual fastest way to deal with individual situations with 2P. I think you could save 30 seconds alone by not jumping higher than you need throughout the course of the game. With a change of plan and some research (!!!) I think you can do a lot better.
Cheating - Wouldn't matter even if there were.
Audio/Video - Horrific. This is the HQ encode? I suspect some of it has to do with the PAL conversion (all the music is in the wrong key) but there are compression artifacts everywhere. Very difficult to watch. Reject-worthy on this basis alone.
Individual notes:
Level 1 - Headbutts could go faster, but whatever.
Level 3 - What a gargantuan waste of time. Why bother standing still if there are two players to take out the rats faster? And why take this warp when the next one is faster?
Level 5 - Walkers are dealt with by one player at a time. Blag is a wasted opportunity for a fast kill with 2P.
Level 6 - Hard to make this faster but it put me to sleep.
Level 8 - Super slow. So many mistakes. I gave up on writing down comments after this. With one exception: Worst orb boss fight ever in the clinger winger level. That's not "perfect." When a 2P boss fight goes slower than a 1P speedrun, you know you've got problems.
Verdict - Reject. You guys have some talent for sure, but you're not in the right headspace. Step 1 would be watching the 2P TAS which reveals a lot of easy ways to save time which you obviously haven't even considered.
I really don't like to vote to reject a run but this isn't good enough. Think about optimization. Take risks. Figure out the actual fastest way to deal with individual situations with 2P. I think you could save 30 seconds alone by not jumping higher than you need throughout the course of the game. With a change of plan and some research (!!!) I think you can do a lot better.
Decision:
Warpless: Accept
2p PAL: Reject
Reason:
Warpless: It's an improvement over the current run. Yes, the runner misses the rat boot, but so does the current warpless run.
2P PAL: Wrong warp order and the run isn't optimized for 2-players.
I do have the 2-player PAL run available for anyone who wants to watch it. PM me for the link.
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