Back to the Future - June 6th, 2009

2009-06-06 12:22:07 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet.

Ray 'Croc-Doc' Cullen's run

Verifier Responses

Quote:

Verifier: well, I'm done watching back to the future..........or at least I think I am
Verifier: I think I dozed off partway through it an woke up before the delorean appeared
Verifier: on a more serious note, not sure what to call this one
Verifier: on one hand, the runner knows the game and uses the fastest ways to beat the game
Verifier: on the other hand, the game is (*&^%&^%$ boring as hell to watch
[00:57] mikwuyma: we don't reject games because they're boring
Verifier: even with him trying to show off the run is boring
Verifier: well I figured that, but it's a good warning to post Smiley

Verifier: there is literally no room for improvement at all unless a way is found to run through the delorean stage without slowing down at all
Verifier: on those grounds, I'd say accept it
Verifier: he didn't have any errors in the run, and he had to slow down on the last stage to miss the lightning
Verifier: otherwise it would've cost him a lot of time and restarts
Verifier: really not much else to say about it
Verifier: the only real issue I'd have with the game is once he gets the skateboard it's game set and match. You could literally pause the game right there, write a few numbers down on a sheet to figure out how long the stages would last, add it up, and that would be your final time basically
[01:04] mikwuyma: but you have to keep the skateboard, right?
Verifier: to me, this seems like a game that once one person runs it, nobody can beat it
Verifier: yeah, you keep it between levels so long as you don't get hit
Verifier: but the game will not complete any faster since the scrolling stages have two speeds: walking or skateboard
Verifier: I doubt anyone will be able to do this game faster
Verifier: not even in TAS by more than 4 seconds
Verifier: this is creepy, I got the TAS version going right next to this guy's run and they're dead even
Verifier: well, with some rough calculations, there's now only 16 seconds of possible improvement time for the entire run, I'd say he did a pretty good job

Quote:

Verification comments for Back To the Future (NES, NTSC).

The audio/video quality works for me.
I could not detect any cheating (I checked that score/lives/items matched between levels and I could not find anything that attracted my attention by violating the game mechanics.

As for the run quality, there are 17 perfect levels and 3 improvable levels. Let's start with possible improvements.

Level 5 - As far as I can tell, the bullies are pretty much random, so constantly hitting the bullies when they appear is not realistic for a human. By comparing with the tas for this game, hitting the bullies at the earliest possible moment would shave off around 10 seconds. It would also have been slightly faster (0,5 s) to hit as the last guy the guy that now grabbed him. I have timed myself playing this level (which gives me serious buttache by the way) and I get times close to, but slower, than what's in this run. It's definitely better than a normal playthrough. The time difference is not that big though.

Level 10 - The counter counts for every second heart that is blocked. The minimum number required for advancing to the next level is 50, so 100 hearts must be blocked. 101 hearts are blocked in this run, which means that around 0,4 seconds are lost.

Level 20 - The runner gets hit by lightning twice and loses speed. To be honest though, this level is just pure randomness (like level 5) and I'm sure that a no-hit run will never see the day. I have difficulties matching the execution seen here even on emu. Having done it at the end of an entire run is impressing. This level is around 4 seconds from perfect (= no-hit run).

Ok, 14-15 seconds from the theoretical limit in a 17 minute-run (of which probably only 2 or 3 are actually within human reach by patiently awaiting more luck). Everything's fine then ? Well, sort of... Now it's time to return to the 17 perfect levels. I have no objections as far as the play quality goes (nothing too fancy, but the runner stays alive). However, I feel obliged to point out to the site responsibles that this game is borderline to be placed in the unrunnable category because of too many auto-scrolling parts. The vast majority of levels are simply not possible to make any faster. It's not because some divine precision, but simply because the runner managed to not get hit (and not missing any targets). The runner certainly deserves recognition for his accomplishment, but any no-hit (and no targets missed) playthrough of the first 19 levels would only be a couple of seconds slower than a run that wants to be labeled "speedrun"...

Verdict : Accept for the play quality, but I have also raised a warning flag regarding how badly suited this game is for speedrunning.

Quote:

I have verified the Back to the Future run.

This run is great! It's very close to optimized actually, there's very few mistakes anywhere. As the runner said, the street stages are maxed out entirely, so the only things left to consider are the four other stages:
-The bully part is extremely close to perfect.
-The classroom part is extremely close to perfect.
-The dance part is perfect.
-The DeLorean part obviously isn't perfect, but he doesn't lose too much time here at all, and overall it's pretty darn good.

The audio/video works fine, and overall I'd say definitely accept.

Decision: Accept

Reason: The parts that can be optimized were mostly optimized.

Thread title:

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet.

Ray 'Croc-Doc' Cullen's run

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]Verifier: well, I'm done watching back to the future..........or at least I think I am
Verifier: I think I dozed off partway through it an woke up before the delorean appeared
Verifier: on a more serious note, not sure what to call this one
Verifier: on one hand, the runner knows the game and uses the fastest ways to beat the game
Verifier: on the other hand, the game is (*&^%&^%$ boring as hell to watch
[00:57] mikwuyma: we don't reject games because they're boring
Verifier: even with him trying to show off the run is boring
Verifier: well I figured that, but it's a good warning to post :)
Verifier: there is literally no room for improvement at all unless a way is found to run through the delorean stage without slowing down at all
Verifier: on those grounds, I'd say accept it
Verifier: he didn't have any errors in the run, and he had to slow down on the last stage to miss the lightning
Verifier: otherwise it would've cost him a lot of time and restarts
Verifier: really not much else to say about it
Verifier: the only real issue I'd have with the game is once he gets the skateboard it's game set and match. You could literally pause the game right there, write a few numbers down on a sheet to figure out how long the stages would last, add it up, and that would be your final time basically
[01:04] mikwuyma: but you have to keep the skateboard, right?
Verifier: to me, this seems like a game that once one person runs it, nobody can beat it
Verifier: yeah, you keep it between levels so long as you don't get hit
Verifier: but the game will not complete any faster since the scrolling stages have two speeds: walking or skateboard
Verifier: I doubt anyone will be able to do this game faster
Verifier: not even in TAS by more than 4 seconds
Verifier: this is creepy, I got the TAS version going right next to this guy's run and they're dead even
Verifier: well, with some rough calculations, there's now only 16 seconds of possible improvement time for the entire run, I'd say he did a pretty good job[/quote]

[quote]Verification comments for Back To the Future (NES, NTSC).

The audio/video quality works for me.
I could not detect any cheating (I checked that score/lives/items matched between levels and I could not find anything that attracted my attention by violating the game mechanics.

As for the run quality, there are 17 perfect levels and 3 improvable levels. Let's start with possible improvements.

Level 5 - As far as I can tell, the bullies are pretty much random, so constantly hitting the bullies when they appear is not realistic for a human. By comparing with the tas for this game, hitting the bullies at the earliest possible moment would shave off around 10 seconds. It would also have been slightly faster (0,5 s) to hit as the last guy the guy that now grabbed him. I have timed myself playing this level (which gives me serious buttache by the way) and I get times close to, but slower, than what's in this run. It's definitely better than a normal playthrough. The time difference is not that big though.

Level 10 - The counter counts for every second heart that is blocked. The minimum number required for advancing to the next level is 50, so 100 hearts must be blocked. 101 hearts are blocked in this run, which means that around 0,4 seconds are lost.

Level 20 - The runner gets hit by lightning twice and loses speed. To be honest though, this level is just pure randomness (like level 5) and I'm sure that a no-hit run will never see the day. I have difficulties matching the execution seen here even on emu. Having done it at the end of an entire run is impressing. This level is around 4 seconds from perfect (= no-hit run).

Ok, 14-15 seconds from the theoretical limit in a 17 minute-run (of which probably only 2 or 3 are actually within human reach by patiently awaiting more luck). Everything's fine then ? Well, sort of... Now it's time to return to the 17 perfect levels. I have no objections as far as the play quality goes (nothing too fancy, but the runner stays alive). However, I feel obliged to point out to the site responsibles that this game is borderline to be placed in the unrunnable category because of too many auto-scrolling parts. The vast majority of levels are simply not possible to make any faster. It's not because some divine precision, but simply because the runner managed to not get hit (and not missing any targets). The runner certainly deserves recognition for his accomplishment, but any no-hit (and no targets missed) playthrough of the first 19 levels would only be a couple of seconds slower than a run that wants to be labeled "speedrun"...

Verdict : Accept for the play quality, but I have also raised a warning flag regarding how badly suited this game is for speedrunning.[/quote]

[quote]I have verified the Back to the Future run.

This run is great! It's very close to optimized actually, there's very few mistakes anywhere. As the runner said, the street stages are maxed out entirely, so the only things left to consider are the four other stages:
-The bully part is extremely close to perfect.
-The classroom part is extremely close to perfect.
-The dance part is perfect.
-The DeLorean part obviously isn't perfect, but he doesn't lose too much time here at all, and overall it's pretty darn good.

The audio/video works fine, and overall I'd say definitely accept.[/quote]

[b]Decision[/b]: Accept

[b]Reason[/b]: The parts that can be optimized were mostly optimized.

kareshi

2009-08-02 05:20:59 pm

I've watched this, and it's autoscrolling for nearly the whole duration. The parts that can be optimized are about as significant as having fast boss fights in any good space shooter, so where is the distinction drawn?

Vugmer

2009-08-02 07:10:01 pm

Cigar Man

From what I've heard, taking damage in those auto-scrolling parts costs a significant amount of time. In most auto-scrolling games, taking damage doesn't cost any time.

What happens if you are not going 88 miles per hour when you hit those electrical lines at the end? Do you just start that level over?

Edit: Also, Croc-Doc explains some of what kareshi was asking about in his comments: "To achieve the fastest time, you need to grab the skateboard as soon as possible and not lose it, since traveling by skateboard is so much faster than walking. Every time Marty gets hit, he wastes several seconds throwing a tantrum, and, if he was riding the skateboard when the hit occurred, he's demoted to foot travel. So, like I said before, the main object is to simply avoid enemies and obstacles."

ZenicReverie

2009-08-02 08:06:59 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from vgmrsepitome:

From what I've heard, taking damage in those auto-scrolling parts costs a significant amount of time. In most auto-scrolling games, taking damage doesn't cost any time.

What happens if you are not going 88 miles per hour when you hit those electrical lines at the end? Do you just start that level over?

Edit: Also, Croc-Doc explains some of what kareshi was asking about in his comments: "To achieve the fastest time, you need to grab the skateboard as soon as possible and not lose it, since traveling by skateboard is so much faster than walking. Every time Marty gets hit, he wastes several seconds throwing a tantrum, and, if he was riding the skateboard when the hit occurred, he's demoted to foot travel. So, like I said before, the main object is to simply avoid enemies and obstacles."

The same could be said of other autoscrolling games. Don't get hit and avoid everything. A thread has been made to discuss this though: http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,10388.0.html

On topic: The run looks very good. Is it even possible to avoid more lightning bolts in the last level? That's probably the only thing I see improving in future attempts.

[quote="vgmrsepitome"]
From what I've heard, taking damage in those auto-scrolling parts costs a significant amount of time.  In most auto-scrolling games, taking damage doesn't cost any time.

What happens if you are not going 88 miles per hour when you hit those electrical lines at the end?  Do you just start that level over?

Edit:  Also, Croc-Doc explains some of what kareshi was asking about in his comments: "To achieve the fastest time, you need to grab the skateboard as soon as possible and not lose it, since traveling by skateboard is so much faster than walking. Every time Marty gets hit, he wastes several seconds throwing a tantrum, and, if he was riding the skateboard when the hit occurred, he's demoted to foot travel. So, like I said before, the main object is to simply avoid enemies and obstacles."
[/quote]
The same could be said of other autoscrolling games.  Don't get hit and avoid everything.  A thread has been made to discuss this though: http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,10388.0.html

On topic: The run looks very good.  Is it even possible to avoid more lightning bolts in the last level?  That's probably the only thing I see improving in future attempts.

honorableJay

2009-08-02 10:46:13 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

It's possible, but you have to be damn lucky to be able to miss a lot of them and still keep your speed going. Check out the TAS to see what it would look like to miss all of the lightning bolts.

ktwo

2009-08-03 01:16:32 am

Quote from vgmrsepitome:

What happens if you are not going 88 miles per hour when you hit those electrical lines at the end? Do you just start that level over?

The answer to this question is actually pretty hilarious. If you don't cross the line at top speed (88 mph), it's game over. You only get one shot at it, regardless of how many lives you had. And it is not easy. I would even say that it is more about luck than skill, so you can't even really practice to get more consistent or something.

I might be wrong, but I have a faint recollection of having read that one of the earlier versions of the tas included hits by lightning, simply because it was hard to manipulate the level. So I don't think avoiding more bolts will be an easy task at least.

Siyko

2009-08-03 08:38:59 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Quote from ktwo:

Quote from vgmrsepitome:

What happens if you are not going 88 miles per hour when you hit those electrical lines at the end? Do you just start that level over?

The answer to this question is actually pretty hilarious. If you don't cross the line at top speed (88 mph), it's game over. You only get one shot at it, regardless of how many lives you had. And it is not easy.

Hahahahahaha, i gotta give the designers credit for that - that's awesome.

Croc-Doc

2009-08-03 09:36:12 am

Hi

Yeah, awesome. Like ktwo said, it's nearly all luck, since you can't predict when/where the lightning will strike, and sometimes it strikes too close to the DeLorean to be able to react. Practice doesn't really make much difference.